Yes, I have driven a 67 Mustang with a 289, in fact a hot rodded 289, with an upgraded suspension and fatter tires (original tires were skinny little things). Even got to drive one of the original Shelby 350GT's. I've driven several Mustangs after that too, including a Saleen version. I've driven too many sports cars and sport sedans to count, including a couple Ferraris and an old Aston Martin DB4 race car. Yes, I consider the 2+2 cars to NOT be sports cars (that inlcudes the 911's that I've driven).

Yep the wording on the Ferrari line was a bit off. Should have been that only some Ferrari's are sports cars even though all Ferrari's are exotics.

In case you didn't know, GT is a term used for high performance cars in general. Grand Touring. It was used a long time before a Mustang was labeled with it. And, just to confuse things, a sports car can be a GT car.

So, yes, a Mini to me is a Sport Sedan or a GT car.

charlie

 

I consider a sports car as any vehicle that could be taken to a ROAD COURSE and raced (This excludes anything with decals for headlights/taillights or "trucks") with minimal preparation.

 

Now thats very cool. Something few get to do. I'm envious.

Actually I did not know that, thats interesting.

I can now see your point in a purist sort of way.

 

Yeah, it was at a show with an original Cobra (289) that I did not get to drive. Unfortunately we did not get to go on the race course with the Mustang.

My favorite drive was the Ferrari Dino. Slow by today's standards, but, was just very cool to me. If I remember right it was the first of the Ferrari rear engine road cars. The joke was that it wasn't considered a "real" Ferrari since the engine was a 6 cyl b@stard child (later used in another car I liked, the Lancia Stratos). Heck, my WRX could out do the Dino in cornering and acceleration. I came within seconds of actually buying the Dino. It was a good deal since it was the Ferrari dealer demo car. Only $8500. New was $11000. For reference a fully loaded Corvette was $7500 and a Firebird TransAm was $4500. I still kick myself for not buying it. But, I was only 22 and the Alfa Spider I did buy was only $3000.

charlie

 

Just a little added bit.

I agree that definitions can change, as does Webster. If the 'common' belief of a sports car has changed I don't disagree with it. I'd like it to have more of a reason for change other than just because it sounds cool.

I grew up when sports cars were for masochists who didn't care if the heater worked very well, water dripped onto the shoulder from a convertible top that never really kept water or wind out, acceleration that was less than most family station wagons, and cornering performance that was marginally better than most well set up sedans. It was almost all image. A car that had only two seats and was really fun to drive. Kinda like a motorcycle with 4 wheels.

The first Ford GT was the GT40, one of my favorite race cars ever. Never got to see one in person. Grand Touring was a racing class (Gran Tourismo) from the old days when road going cars were raced on real roads (no Armco barriers and only a few house/building owners would put up hay bales to protect their property). Mille Miglia was one of the more famous and LeMans was the last of the old breed. The GT class was established for that type of racing. Rules were such that over 500 (or 1000?) cars of a certain type had to be produced before it could be raced (called homologation). Later the GT prototype class was established for higher perf factory teams. In that class only 25 (or 12, I think the rules changed a bit year to year) cars had to be made to qualify, eg, the Ford GT40 and Ferrari 330. Later it became a one off racing car class, GTP.

Sorry for the dissertation.

charlie

 

GTs traditionally have a 2-door 2 seat configuration, tho 2+2 designs are often included. FWD is generally not associated with GT cars. There are many FWD as well as 2-door sport sedans. I like the fact that tho the clubbie has 5 doors, it is essentially a 2-door sports sedan in a touring (not grand touring) variation. Touring being a wagon/estate variation of the basic sedan design.

Actually the Dino was originally not considered an actual Ferrari because it was never badged a "Ferrari" by the factory. It came only with "Dino" badging.

 

True. Probably the only car made in the Ferrari factory without it. At one time there was also a discussion about the V6 engine being made in the Fiat factory as well, but, I never saw confirmation of that.

 

The Dino was called the 'baby Ferrari'..and 206 GT was 180hp with it's 2L engine, 8 more hp than ClubmanS's 172hp with it's 1.6L, for the sake of our 'comparison'.

 

For sake of argument the Dino is how many hundreds of pounds lighter than a Clubman? And remember that the Dino was produced 40 years ago. Also, the 206 was considered underpowered at the time and was only produced for the Italian market in order to get around higher taxes for larger displacement vehicles.

 

About 350 pounds curb weight extra on the ClubbieS. Age? I didn't bring Dino to the table, someone else did. Many would consider Clubbie underpowered at the time, and presently as well. Poor Italy...taxes limited the Dino...I WEEP! A road track race btw. a 206 GT Dino and a ClubbieS would be quite exciting, and not totally preposterous...ergo a 'Sports Car'.

 

I did bring up the Dino. It is a traditional sports car in my book.

And, performance is not the total definition of a sports car in my mind as I described in previous posts (see post 80).

So, please go ahead and call the MINI a sports car if you want. I won't. To me it is still a sport sedan, right along with a 911 that has back seats.

charlie

 

Not a good definition. Even though they are listed as eligible for SCCA racing, I think that even you would not categorize a VW Rabbit as a sportscar.

 

Top Gear Ferrari 612 Sca(something or another)
Jeremy Clarkson-"I have no back ache, engine's quiet, ride is good-- good GT car"
That Ferrari is a GT car by those standards, according to Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear. The MINI Clubman could 'theoretically' fit THAT definition for a GT car
time: 9:33-9:42
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/T...ode_188981.htm

 

No sports car has front wheel drive. Our Minis are not sport cars.

Best regards,
Terry

 

Me thinks you have some work to do over at Wiki...lots of corrections!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...ve_sports_cars

 

LOL that list has the honda CRX listed as a sports car?!

Great little car, especially out on the autocross course.....but a sports car? Yah right.

 

You'd be surprised...it was pretty revolutionary and very fast in it's day.

That WAS almost 20 years ago though...

 

I'd say so. I remember the first CRX Si that I saw on track in "84 or '85 I believe. It had sports car like performance & handling. It just wailed on the rest of us in that SCCA race at Nelson. Yep for me it was & will remain a sports car.

Light weight & nimbleness was the CRX's secret.

+1 ^

 

FWD catergory???

Alfa Spider? I think not. The one I had was also handicapped with a solid rear axle, not even an IFS.

Lotus Elan? Subaru XT?

Just goes to show that Wikipedia needs to be checked with a second (or third) source. Kinda like an assembly of a bunch of opinions. But, I bet it you put it in there the Mini would be listed as a Sports Car

 

Call it whatever you like. Sports car, Economy car, Wagon. I would like to think of it as a Sports Wagon, much like the BMW Sports Wagon. My wife has only "got on it" a couple of times. She does not care for the Torque steer! She says it all over the road. When I put my foot in it she asked me why it didn't jump around with me. I smiled and told her that I am used to it and compensate for it with out thinking about it. I may of made a mistake when I said...punch it once and a while you will get the hang of it too. My wife can drive, and if she gets used to this JCW Clubman... YIKES!!!

 

You're right. It's your MINI. Call it whatever you like. Just Motor

Pat

 

FWIW, it might not be just the torque steer. The traction control is part of the problem (Clubbie S). Turn off the traction control and try it. You get a slight pull to one side as the wheel spins. With the traction control on it is braking one side, then the other as they grab and let go. Gives that jerky motion. Makes me wish I'd gotten the LSD.

charlie

 

It is a sports station wagon. It handles incredibly well for a MINI that is 10 inches longer and some 200-400 pounds heavier than its hardtop coupe counterpart.

 

The 1988-91 Honda CRX 2 seater was the Japanese spiritual alternative of the Mini back then. It was a terrific car back then and a little ahead of its time. The Si models were fuel injected. The HF CRX models were carburated and capable of delivering 45MPG in the highway.

Of course, none of these cars had airbags, ABS, traction control, 6-speed gearboxes or any of the must have safety features we have in our present day MINIs, but they were very respectable cars nonetheless.

Too bad that Honda killed the CRX spirit when the 1992 DelSol model was introduced and also killed few years after that.

To me the US spec Civic Si is too much of a porker to be a true CRX alternative.

The European/Japanese Civic Si and Type R models are superior to the watered down Si versions we get here. Plus you can get a Civic Si 5 door hatchback in those markets, but the goons decided that US customers "only" want 4 door sedans and impractical 3 box design coupes