I posted this yesterday on the Clubman Wheel thread, but at the risk of hi-jacking the thread, I'll start a new thread here.

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Okay, so my Clubbie has 18k miles and I’ve never rotated my tires. A couple weeks ago, I noticed the front tires beginning to get very low on tread…I looked at my back tires and noticed that there was still a good amount of tread on them, so I went to America’s Tire where I bought my aftermarket 17 inch MOMO wheels and Yokohama S Drive tires to have them rotated for the first time (I know, I know…they should be rotated about every 6K). Anyhow, upon getting on the freeway after the tire rotation, I started to hear a lot of road noise and noticed a lot of steering wheel vibration. Turns out my rear tires (now sitting in front) had began to “cup” from not having been rotated for such a long time…”cupping” is where your tires begin to form subtle peaks and valleys.

I’m just hopping that these peaks and valleys will gradually wear down now that my rear tires are in front, but I don’t know if this will happen or if my tires are ruined for good. My wife is complaining about the bumpy ride = ( Anyhow, hope someone learns something from my mistake….get your tires rotated.

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I've since been informed that the MINI manual says that you SHOULDN'T rotate your tires from the front to the back (and vice versa). I looked in my own manual and there it is on page 105. I'm very surprised...I thought front to back tire rotation was standard procedure. What was I supposed to do? The tires I previously had on front had about 20% tread left while the tires in back had about 70% tread left. So just rotating from side to side (and not front to back) wouldn't have done much good.

Any insights would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

Don't sweat it. Rotating is fine. They put that out because of runflat directional tires. If there is no arrow pointing to the rotation of each tire, you are ok. But waiting that long it's kinda useless to rotate now. Regular tires with front wheel drive should be rotated by bringing the two front tires straight back and cris-srossing the two rears onto the front. As I was taught years ago. The cupping means that your rear is out of camber, and I would take it in to get it corrected. At least before you put new tires on it.

 

At Sandia MINI in Albuquerque, I was about to leave the dealer after having my first service on my '05 MC when I asked how the tires and brakes looked after having assumed they rotated the tires. They told me that MINI doesn't have tire rotation as part of the service and that they didn't believe they should be rotated. I didn't want them to even touch my car again so I got them rotated back at home in the El Paso area. When I didn, I noticed the same noise and feel of the tires. It never went away just f.y.i., or at least not to an acceptable level.

Last year at MINI of Scottsdale, I got a service on my Clubman and they asked me if I wanted my tires rotated because they believe in 5k rotation cycle....all part of the free service. I didn't because I just had them done for free at Discount Tires.

 

First off the S-Drives are directional tires. What this means is that the CAN NOT be moved from side to side during a rotation unless they are removed from the rim and mounted back on the rim in the opposite direction.

As for front to back rotation. Yes MINI does not recommend this and on many high performance cars you can not do this due to large differences in tire pressure from front to back. But that is not the case on the MINI.

Rotating them on a 3k-5k schedule can reduce the wear factor. but your car needs to be aligned properly after the rotation as moving rear tires to the front WILL change the alignment because the of the rear camber on the car. I.E. the insides edges wear a little faster than the outsides edges (not really noticeable at 5K miles but will definitely be noticed at say 20K).

As for your rear tires "Cupping" they really should not do that unless there is a problem with the alignment. So from what you said it sounds like you may have an alignment problem as well.

When i have an alignment done it takes about two hours and there is weight that needs to be put in the car (drivers, passenger seats and the rear behind the seats) and many of the places like discount tire, america's tire, tire warehouse do not add this weight to the car so the alignment is not properly done. Your best bet is to have a look at Tirerack.com and find an independent tire place near you and have then check the alignment.

No as to my actual experience with a proper alignment on my car and driving the car moderately hard normally I had very even wear on the front and rear tires from front to back and have NOT rotated my tires. In fact the OEM Dunlop Sport 01 ROF tires had 23K+ miles before replacement. Now moderately hard driving is about 9 runs on the drag strip, three days driving "The Dragon" very hard, and many twisty roads in New England aggressively. I would say the of the 23K+ miles only about 12k-13K were highway miles, and 6k were city miles the rest of the 6k were aggressive driving. Again this is just my experience and not everyone will get even wear but a good alignment goes along way to having a very well handling car and reducing tire wear.

 

The S-Drives are a directional tire and cris-crossing CAN NOT be done unless the tire are removed from the rim and mounted for the opposite rotation direction.

EDIT: it is not only runflat tires that are directional.

 

Thank You Schatzy62

I would only add that with regarding your last statement above regarding removing/opposite rotation: It is reccomended that should you decide to do it that way....that it be done every 500 miles or not done at all.......and that would fall under the catorgory of obsessive compulsive behavior or....the owner of the MINI who does such has his own tire changer/Hunter 9000 wheel balancer in his garage....but then again, maybe that is the same thing

And to the OP: Your rear camber is not "off" as someone may have inferred. The rear camber is set that way which is part of the reason why we have such great handling characteristics.......It's a BMW thing.....

 

[QUOTE=schatzy62;2972503]

As for your rear tires "Cupping" they really should not do that unless there is a problem with the alignment. So from what you said it sounds like you may have an alignment problem as well.

[QUOTE]

The manager at America's tire said that cupping frequently occurs because of faulty shocks/struts, but that it also happens when you don't rotate your tires as in my case (18k before 1st rotation). He said that not rotating was the likely cause of my rear tires cupping. But yes, it never hurts to get your alignment checked out.

 

I would not know a S tire from a P-zero Nero if you threw 'em at me. So my apoligies there. I knew since they came out with directional tires that you should not rotate them, as I stated. But with "Normal" tires there is no reason not to. Just routine maint. But every 3-5 k is normal for rotation on most autos. I have been behind Mini's and never noticed that they were set up like VW Bugs, and that camber was VERY noticeable, and it's a wonder they stayed on the road.

 

Just my .02....my 2010 owner's manual, pg 113, states that it is acceptable to rotate the tires to keep even tire wear...as others have mentioned with directional tires, just front to rear, no crisscrossing.

Clint

 

It makes perfect sense that you would rotate your wheels routinely...I just can't wrap my head around why my 2008 Clubman manual would state on page 105:

"The manufacturer of your MINI recommends that you do not swap the front wheels with the rear wheels."

 

If I assume my rear wheels "cupped" because I didn't rotate them for 18k, can I assume that at some point they will even out now that they're on the front? If not, is it possible to shave your tire to even out the peaks and valleys? Or some other repair?

 

[quote=Parkerton;2972569][quote=schatzy62;2972503]

As for your rear tires "Cupping" they really should not do that unless there is a problem with the alignment. So from what you said it sounds like you may have an alignment problem as well.

Maybe, but it seems odd that if his tires are actually cupped, why was it not felt before when they were mounted on the back I still think it's just an anomoly of the rear neg camber being worn into the tread.

Cupping can be caused by an unbalanced tires, faulty wheel bearings, fatigued springs or weak shock absorbers. In most of these cases the tire rotates in severe to moderate smacking motions striking the pavement causing flat spots, scalloping or cup marks on the face of the tread.

Since his MINI is fairly new, had not felt any unbalanced tire condition before the rotation, and since it is safe to say that his shocks are still in good working order, it is probably due to his rear tires having been worn to the natural neg. camber our cars have.

The camber on our MINI's is extreme for most, but is what gives us the go cart ride and handling most of us enjoy. Reason enough alone as to why MINI reccomends not to rotate the tires.

 

To my knowledge, there is no fix to cupped tires if that is what you have.

But as always, when adding new tires to any car, MINI recommends a 4 wheel alignment be done immediately after mounting.

 

Thanks gray raven, the negative camber setting is an interesting hypothesis. But is the negative camber only in the rear? If so, that could explain why the insides of my original rear tires are the portions that were cupped.

The other issue I'm trying to reconcile is why my fronts wore out so much faster than my rears. I understand that cornering and FWD takes a larger toll on the front than the rears, but my fronts probably had 20% tread left while my rears had 70% at visual glance. That's quite a difference. But if I had rotated every 5k, that would've made a big difference.

Anyways, the more I think about this, the more I think I need to head down to Costco, pick up some new tires and get an alignment done.

 

Negative camber will cause the tread to wear uneven from side to side. The inside will wear faster than the outside but WILL NOT cause cupping if everything else is aligned properly. Many high performance cars as this way becauase of the handling characteristics it gives.

Tire balance, shocks, uneven tire pressure side to side (approximately 5 psi difference or more), wheel bearing, caster, bent rim and a few other things can all cause cupping. But not just negative camber.

I know that my Clubman drove what seemed to be very smooth with very little vibration when I picked it up even at speeds over 100 MPH there was no shaking of the steering wheel and the car rode very quietly. There was a slight vibration but very little. Most people did not even notice it.

But being the stickler I am about alignments (some call me obsessive) brought me to the thinking it could be better after only 300 miles. I brought it to the dealer and I was told that it was in spec. I asked what that meant and the showed me the paper work from the alignment machine. The rear camber was just barely in spec and the caster was just barely in spec but different on both sides of the car. Both very very close to the extended limits. (I at this time do not remember what the exact figures were) So I brought it to the shop that does my BMW 525iT. When put on the rack it was just barely in spec. After a full alignment, replacement of the rear lower control arms and re-balance of all the tires (road force balance) the car now sits exactly on the center of the specification. There is NO vibration at all and the car is very very smooth at up to and over 100 mph. And the car handles amazingly well.

The car could handle better on the track by adding more negative camber (to a point of course) but that gets into more tire wear and I do not drive on the track very often.

IMHO you should have it checked out by a local independant shop and if you can watch them and ask them questions while they are doing the alignment. There is a lot you could learn.

BTW the shop that does my alignments has Hunter stopping by every few months and asking him about the real world issues that he encounters with some of the most exotic cars around as well as the lowly fords and chevy's.
There are people that will drive 700+ miles just to have him do an alignment because Hunter says he is the best.

 

Yes but it will take a long time.

You could shave the tires but then again it will still take time for the feeling to go away, and you will have lost mileage on them.

You might want to check out this place they have the best mounting and balancing equipment made and probably have the best alignment equipment as well. Not sure how close they are to you but it may be worth the drive.

Big O Tires
3040 GEARY BLVD
SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94118-0000
(415) 751-2577

 

fwiw, I've been rotating my tires every 5k miles front to back. Got 40k miles out of the OEM runflats and I am now working on some Yoko S.drives. Have not done an alignment yet as no indication that one is needed.

Besides regular rotations, you really need to stay on top of the air pressure. Keeping the tires properly inflated will go a long way in keeping them in good shape.

 

Neg camber is in the rear. I keep my tires balanced, so all mine get is the feathered tread blocks and uneven wear on the insides porting of the tire patch.

If you don't keep your tires balanced, or if they were not balance right to begin with, THAT will cause the sort of scalloping you are seeing....maybe you can post some pics of the tires so we can see as to what degree this has ocurred.

 

Oh great, another tire rotation thread!

For safety reasons, the best tires should always be mounted at the rear of any car -- FWD/RWD/AWD. In a FWD car like the Mini, the front tires normally wear faster than the rears. So when you rotate them front to back, you wind up with the more worn tires at the rear, which is less safe.

I don't rotate my Mini's tires. I just wait til the fronts are worn down to the bars and then buy two new tires. The shop moves the partially worn rear tires to the front (a rotation of sorts, I admit...) then mounts the new tires at the rear.

BTW, because of the safety implications, if you buy only two tires, it is illegal for the shop to mount them at the front, at least in my state.

In a RWD car which has the same tire size all around, rotation does make perfect sense.

 

Just a wild guess on the 2008 warning.

1st service = 15,000 miles for oil change. By then too late to rotate tires. They don't want you coming in just to rotate tires since it is pre-paid service. Tire wear is not their problem, it is yours. Servicing your Mini too many times is their problem, not yours.......
Warning - Don't rotate your tires..... their problem solved.

 

I don't believe tire rotation is considered part of the included maintenance plan. I occasionally see reports that some dealers will do it for no additional charge, but I don't think it is too common. I would not be surprised though if the recommendation to not rotate isn't based on some belief that owners won't do it in between regular services and by time 15k rolls around, it probably is too late to do it safely.

 

I've rotated my tires twice already (front to back) with no problems. I'm getting a strut replaced today and they're going to check the alignment too, it'll be interesting to see if it needs to be aligned at 11,500 miles...

 

I rotate my Clubman's tires front-to-back twice a year, and the wear on all four tires is very even at around 17k miles. I use a tire tread depth gauge to check each tire, and the tread depth is fairly even across each tire, inside or outside.

I've rotated the tires on every car I've ever owned in a similar fashion, front or rear wheel drive, and I've never had any issues because of tire rotation, unless you consider getting more miles out of your tires an issue.

 

911Fan wrote:

>> For safety reasons, the best tires should always be mounted at the rear of any car -- FWD/RWD/AWD.<<

I have never heard of this. And I cannot imagine *how* it could be true, especially for a FWD car like the Mini. Think about it, on the Mini, the front tires are responsible for:

1) Pulling the car
2) Initiating and holding turns
3) The majority of the braking - that's why the front rotors are *always* bigger.

So, how could putting the best tires up front compromise safety?

Please understand, I am NOT calling you a liar. But your recommnedation does not pass the "sniff" test. Please educate me...

Thanks,

 

You can't really see the cupping with the eye in my case...but you can feel it if you run your hands along the tires.

Given that my rear tires are at 20% and my front tires are cupped, I'm really leaning towards driving them just a couple more thousand miles and then getting new tires and ensuring my alignment, bearings, shocks, struts are within spec.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone (especially you Schatzy, always so thorough!)