You might want to turn it off when you are trying to get moving because the wheel-spin DSC prevents can be useful to get you unstuck, but once you gain speed, turn it back on - at least, that's my advice.

 

Someone said, on one of these threads, that this is one area where DSC and LSD aren't too happy with each other. True?

 

You can read all sorts of strange things in forums. Some people have confused DSC with ASTC. There was some discussion about turning ASTC off for icy hills under certain conditions. However, I don't recall it being a conclusive discussion. I have yet to hear a good explanation as to when and why (other than competition driving) it would be beneficial to turn DSC off. There are people who don't like the idea of it and will drop bombshell statements into DSC threads, but can't really back them up.

 

DSC only comes into play when you are already moving, and moving in the wrong direction. The car has to be moving in a direction other than the wheels are pointed for DSC to be active.

You are thinking of ASTC.

 

My mistake, then. I should read into things more deeply before basing ideas on them.

Thanks for the correction.

 

I'm not saying I am the most skilled driver here, but I have enough training and experience to consider myself compentent in performance driving situations.

I've experimented both on the track and on roads like the dragon and have found that DSC is not intrusive when the driver is smooth,in control, not making mistakes, and not over-driving the car. It kicks in only when I make a mistake and not every single time I take a spirited turn.

Sometimes I turn it off in performance situations, but when I don't it rarely comes into play.

 

I don't mean to offend anyone but you would have to be a pretty terrible driver to make the DSC useful on dry pavement in the mini. The mini is a really stable car and you have to be pretty crazy to get the back to step out on dry pavement. The DSC is just using the brakes while reducing the throttle, there is no magic system that gives the car more traction. So I was saying the system is idiot proof, because it prevents you from doing all the wrong things to spin out the car. The stability control systems are being federally mandated because of the ford explorer fiasco. Stability control can help prevent the driver from flipping a high CG vehicle, but the MINI isn't going to flip without some pretty extreme circumstances. Low friction pavement the benefit will still be small because again its just using the brakes its only going to stop you from dangerously over driving on a slick surface. I would turn it off in the snow, because i rather not have a system messing with the brakes in the snow. It could even hinder the car like the ABS system usually does in the snow. As far as failures, the DSC requires other sensors that aren't as simple as the ABS system.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=122538
https://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110574

I am not telling anyone not to get the system, just understand what the true benefits really are. Stability control tends to get over exaggerated.

 

What about my question of DSC vs. LSD, or DSC + LSD? Effects on each other?

 

The DSC and LSD are not really related. The LSD will help distribute torque to both front wheels if on of the wheels start slipping, where as a traditional diff will let the wheel experiencing lower friction spin freely with the majority of the torque. The DSC uses sensors to detection how a car may be sliding off course and asymmetrically apply the brakes to the car to to help it point in the original direction. These two system wont really effect each other. The ASC and the LSD will do similar things, because the traction control will reduce engine power and apply the brakes to the drive wheels if needed when experiencing low traction. I dont have the LSD on the mini but usually the ASC system will act over the LSD on most cars. If the traction control reduces the power the LSD wont have much to distribute. The LSD is purely mechanical so its still possible to have some effect with the traction control, but its major difference will be when the ASC is off.

 

I believe that a dry pavement scenario would most likely be an emergency situation at high speed. A dear, dog, cat, wolverine, runs across the road in front of you. Or, perhaps an accident occurs directly in front of you. It happens so fast you have a knee-jerk reaction to swerve and the MINI starts to slide. Maybe you are driving a twisty road in a spirited way and you come around a blind curve a little too fast and find a bolder, stalled vehicle, or wreck in the middle of the road. In these situations, DSC should be helpful. It may not completely save you, but it would most likely give you an edge you didn't otherwise have.

It is understood that it cannot change the laws of physics. What it can do is react faster than a human, and in ways that a human is unable. You are limited to the ebrake, throttle, clutch, and wheel. It can apply the brake to one wheel to help rotate the car back into a controllable direction. It can do this, and monitor the results, for faster that you can, and in ways you cannot.

I was just being a little facetious, but I believe that an idiot is capable of overcoming almost any system.

Also, I don't believe that it prevents you from doing the wrong things. I think it applies corrections to try and recover after you have done the wrong thing.

Yes, and hopefully, that will help reduce the number of SUVs that hit MINIs. However, its value is not limited to SUVs with inadequate tire pressure. I've read that there is statistical evidence saying it actually does reduce the number of accidents -- unlike ABS which failed to show such a decrease.

Perhaps the MINI is not very likely to flip, but my MCS is considerably taller and shorter than my Acura Integra, and I know someone who managed to roll an Integra. A high center of gravity and a short wheelbase both make a car easier to roll. The short wheel base was one of the contributing factors to the rollover problems of the early small SUVs (was the Samurai, and early Rav 4?) that Consumer Reports got so vocal about.

DSC really isn't just about flipping, it is about losing control. It is the loss of control that can send a car sideways, which may result in a rollover, or hitting something.

DSC isn't about stopping you. It is about returning the car's actual direction of travel to the intended direction of travel. It doesn't come on and stop your car. It tries to return the car to your control.

When a car starts to slide, one is supposed to turn the wheels in the direction of the slide. That isn't because you want to go where you are sliding, it is because that is the way to regain control. Unfortunately, on slick surfaces, it is difficult not to over-correct. The fast reaction times of a computer system make it possible to better determine the amount of brake application, and or engine management, required to correct properly -- regardless of surface conditions.

I would want to try it, and confirm that it did not perform as it should, before I decided to turn it off. It is much more capable of evaluating what the brake is doing to the traction of a particular wheel than a human can be.

Does it? I believe some have commented in this thread that it is helpful in snow.

Any system can fail. I've not heard that DSC is more prone to failure than other systems in the MINI. Those threads indicate just a few people with that problem. To use that evidence to say you shouldn't get DSC because it is problematic, is a gross exaggeration. The MINI has a very complex computer system. Perhaps we shouldn't get MINIs at all, or any modern car for that matter. Let's all drive Model T Fords.

Reading your post leads me to the impression that you don't understand it that well.

If someone over exaggerated how good something tasted, would you then stop eating it?

DSC tends to get blamed for a lot of things it has nothing to do with. However, I don't recall any over exaggeration about it. People have said it could save your life. I don't think anyone said it would always save your life. A seatbelt could save your life. Or, you could get into a situation where you die in spite of the seatbelt. Same thing with DSC.

It has been shown to reduce accidents. IMO, that makes it worthwhile to paying extra for, and foolish to turn off, except under controlled competition events.

 

Your question was rather vague. How about finding the source that describes these effects and give us more info?

 

I wish I could, Robin. As I recall, the posters were discussing the possibility that a quick freeway entrance in slush or snow required killing the DSC--something to that effect. As I recall--it was sometime last winter that the question was raised--there were those who said it was the only way to accelerate fast enough. And that LSD made it even more imperative that the DSC be turned off.

I don't have a clue if this is correct--I just haven't been able to think through the scenario that would make this needed. Or, as the posters were stating, absolutely required to safely merge into traffic before getting splatted like a bug on the 18 wheeler you're trying to enter in front of.

Understand that I am definitely in the DSC camp. Like you said above, it doesn't mean that you won't get killed somewhere along the line with DSC on. It just puts the odds in your favor.

Incidentally, you made an interesting comment about ABS not helping in bring down accident statistics. Really? I'd like to see this reference--I know my bacon has been saved more than once by ABS. It's really just another way of harnessing the computer to help out the cluck behind the wheel.

 

ABS is commonly known not to perform well in the snow. The systems have been getting better and better and the mini isnt terrible but the problem is that they overreact to the extremely low traction and just keep letting the wheels slip. In snow and gravel you are better off just letting the tires push and the system doesn't know that. Not sure if I saw it in the MINI's manual but it is common to see a disclaimer in car manuals saying abs does not always improve stopping distance and may increase it on a loose surface. The DSC system is just applying the brakes, which the driver is perfectly capable of doing. The ABS system will even help sort things out in a slide. With the mini I have taken it to the limits with the ASC off still putting power down. You got to be do something crazy to turn the car around and even then its pretty easy to correct without even touching the brakes. If you tap the brakes the ABS system sorts it out pretty quick. The MINI handles well, its front wheel drive, and it lets you know way before it looses it. I personally don't see value in adding that option. Perhaps it would be useful if you have a really inexperienced young driver. I was just trying to let people know so they don't spend so much money on options because things add up with the MINI and the DSC is not a good value unless you want it for the hill control. Seriously that is a huge price tag for something that is just electronics added onto the ABS controller.

 

That is interesting I could see if the system overreacts to the inevitable slight side to side slipping in the snow and drags the brakes all the way on the on ramp. Perhaps the LSD messes with the sensors, when it goes to full lock the wheels should be turning together which will be effective alone. I could see the DSC interfering to that effect, because it will apply the brakes and reduce power if it thinks something is wrong.

And yeah ABS is usually great. I would like a switch sometimes, but even skilled drivers are going to struggle to beat the stopping distance in the heavy rain.

 

I dunno, chiliXer--you might be thinking a bit differently if you'd been in that long, long line of BMWs that went through the same slow corner we nearly spun on. We were the only ones with the problem--but, as I said, the DSC was not working then. We got it fixed promptly after that. It's a $500 option, and our deductible is $1,000.

 

No, DSC controls the brakes on each of the 4 wheels independently. No driver is capable of doing that.

This video shows how braking is applied to individual wheels to counteract over/understeer.

 

This is a clip from 5th Gear (not to be confused with Top Gear).

See demonstrations of ABS, traction control, and DSC (Bosch's ESP) starting from around 4:00.

 

What a load of old cobblers.

 

get dsc, here is a prime example of why... taken from the 1st gen section

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=122799

 

It takes less than average driving skill to get into such a situation, and more than average driving skill to get out of it. DSC and other such systems were made for that type of driver, and the reason our government is mandating them.

 

Oh but of course the ABS cant? That was my point to begin with. The system works for the people dumb enough to keep on the gas instead of hitting the brakes and taking advantage of the ABS system. Tiff is a skilled driver and he did that on purpose. Watch the steering inputs and compare between the two. He drastically counter steers during the second obstacle and never bothers to hit the brakes throughout any of that. With the stability control he doesn't overreact like that. The ABS systems biggest advantage is in accident avoidance and if the driver uses the breaks while maneuvering it would accomplish the same thing the stability control did in that test. I messed avoid with one of the defensive driving lane change/accident avoidance on a rainy day before which really showed to me how the abs can really help for those situations if you understand it. Even when the tail kicked out ABS was very helpful. I'm really surprised there is so much love for DSC on the forums here, most performance enthusiasts hate it. Ive done stupid things plenty of times before and kicked the tail of the car out when there isn't much to hit, but I have never had any problems correcting on my own and sometimes with ABS help. The most out of control spins I have done in auto cross still aren't difficult to get under control with help of the ABS.

 

Or dumb enough to think hitting the brakes is a good idea when you are going sideways.

Not true.

His steering input is similar at the initial obstacle in both cases. His secondary steering inputs aren't as radical with ESP because the car isn't going sideways as much as without. Less correction is needed.

I believe you are mistaken. When the car is going sideways, ABS will not turn it to head in the direction of the slide. ESP/DSC will. ABS designed to slow or stop the car and is most effective when the car is travelling in the direction its front wheels are pointed. The entire purpose of ESP/DSC is to turn the car so that it is pointed in the direction it is moving -- allowing you to regain control and ABS to function properly.

I think you need to edit the first part of that sentence. I assume you mean you experimented on wet pavement. ABS can help you slow the car if it is not going fully sideways. It does not do what DSC does.

That hatred was earned by overaggressive DSC systems that came on too soon and/or made erroneous corrections. There have been plenty of reports here indicating that the MINI system does not do that.

When there are things to hit, DSC will help you get it under control quicker than you could alone. That could be the difference between hitting and missing.

 

... and he is convinced that everybody should get DSC/ESP.

 

ABS can not and will not selectively apply braking force to one corner of the car. It will keep the brakes from locking up and that is it.

 

Oh really?

There seems to be a misunderstanding of how ABS works or with physics in general. ABS has been around for a while and almost every modern system works by a shaft encoder in each wheel measuring the RPMs of that wheel. The ABS controller is the system that controls the hydraulic pressure going to each of the brakes. The system will sense each wheel and can independently apply braking pressure to each wheel based on whether its locked or not. The algorithm to control abs is usually proprietary but they will all do the same basic thing of trying to modulate braking pressure to prevent the wheels from locking and keep the car able to steer.

Now say you are in a situation where your car starts to slide and the back end is sliding to the left (car points too much to the right). If you immediately stomp the brakes with abs it will go about its purpose. Now thinking about what the car is doing the left wheels of the car are pretty much already locked in the slide or will lock easily with a small bit of braking pressure. The right side of the car (mostly the front wheel) will be able to use the brakes more and the ABS will allow most of the braking pressure go to that side of the car. This creates the asymmetrical braking to swing the car back in line and the DSC system would try to do mostly the same thing. Now if you kept steering into the slide the ABS isn't going to be a big help, but even the DSC isn't going to get you out of something that you keep trying to steer into because its using the brakes the same way.

The DSC then is useful for those drivers that aren't quick enough to get on the brakes when they start sliding, or for those who don't understand what the ABS can do for them. Sadly it seems that a lot of people don't understand what the simpler ABS system can do for them. Defensive driving classes need to be a requirement for drivers licenses so people understand their cars better.