R56 Ethanol issues
#1
Ethanol issues
I have a 2007 MINI Cooper.
The owner's manual, as well as staff at my local MINI Dealership, all confirm that ethanol can kill MINI engines.
I had two spark plugs replaced because of ethanol damage so far.
I live in DC, where there's NO REGULATION requiring gas stations to post ethanol content. Same as in MD.
Does anyone know of any list of ethanol-free stations in the District of Columbia?
There's some lists I found for MD, and other states through this link:
http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MD
Any other insights about dealing with Ethanol would be appreciated.
The owner's manual, as well as staff at my local MINI Dealership, all confirm that ethanol can kill MINI engines.
I had two spark plugs replaced because of ethanol damage so far.
I live in DC, where there's NO REGULATION requiring gas stations to post ethanol content. Same as in MD.
Does anyone know of any list of ethanol-free stations in the District of Columbia?
There's some lists I found for MD, and other states through this link:
http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MD
Any other insights about dealing with Ethanol would be appreciated.
#2
I have a 2007 MINI Cooper.
The owner's manual, as well as staff at my local MINI Dealership, all confirm that ethanol can kill MINI engines.
I had two spark plugs replaced because of ethanol damage so far.
I live in DC, where there's NO REGULATION requiring gas stations to post ethanol content. Same as in MD.
Does anyone know of any list of ethanol-free stations in the District of Columbia?
There's some lists I found for MD, and other states through this link:
http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MD
Any other insights about dealing with Ethanol would be appreciated.
The owner's manual, as well as staff at my local MINI Dealership, all confirm that ethanol can kill MINI engines.
I had two spark plugs replaced because of ethanol damage so far.
I live in DC, where there's NO REGULATION requiring gas stations to post ethanol content. Same as in MD.
Does anyone know of any list of ethanol-free stations in the District of Columbia?
There's some lists I found for MD, and other states through this link:
http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MD
Any other insights about dealing with Ethanol would be appreciated.
#3
I have a 2007 MINI Cooper.
The owner's manual, as well as staff at my local MINI Dealership, all confirm that ethanol can kill MINI engines.
I had two spark plugs replaced because of ethanol damage so far.
I live in DC, where there's NO REGULATION requiring gas stations to post ethanol content. Same as in MD.
Does anyone know of any list of ethanol-free stations in the District of Columbia?
There's some lists I found for MD, and other states through this link:
http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MD
Any other insights about dealing with Ethanol would be appreciated.
The owner's manual, as well as staff at my local MINI Dealership, all confirm that ethanol can kill MINI engines.
I had two spark plugs replaced because of ethanol damage so far.
I live in DC, where there's NO REGULATION requiring gas stations to post ethanol content. Same as in MD.
Does anyone know of any list of ethanol-free stations in the District of Columbia?
There's some lists I found for MD, and other states through this link:
http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MD
Any other insights about dealing with Ethanol would be appreciated.
#5
However, if you are burning fuel at too low a temp, I believe the sparkplug color is whiter. Burned cleanly at normal temp, the sparkplugs should be a brown/tan color. Somebody should correct me if I have my science backwards. Burning oil or burning too hot causes your plugs to go black.
MINIs are safe for up to 10% ethanol in its gasoline. There is some tolerance built into the engines. However, especially in the US where gas formulation is not as regulated as it is in Canada, it's beware.
#6
beken: I agree that light brown/tan tip indicates proper burning. I think running too lean is indicated by a light gray/white color, and too rich shows dark (and maybe a bit damp). Light detonation (usually not heard) may give a sand-blasted look, and heavy detonation (easy to hear) may break the insulator.
I'd still like to know what a plug ruined by ethanol looks like, so I'll know it if I see it. Most of us are probably running up to 10% ethanol in our fuel without noticing any change in plug readings; thus maintaining our usual plug change schedule. I wonder what's different in the OP's case.
I'd still like to know what a plug ruined by ethanol looks like, so I'll know it if I see it. Most of us are probably running up to 10% ethanol in our fuel without noticing any change in plug readings; thus maintaining our usual plug change schedule. I wonder what's different in the OP's case.
#7
Ethanol has less energy and ignites at a lower temperature. The higher octane fools your ECU into thinking it's burning high octane gasoline. This causes the timing advance to be wrong causing some engine knock. Engine knocking can damage a lot more than just the spark plugs.
However, if you are burning fuel at too low a temp, I believe the sparkplug color is whiter. Burned cleanly at normal temp, the sparkplugs should be a brown/tan color. Somebody should correct me if I have my science backwards. Burning oil or burning too hot causes your plugs to go black.
MINIs are safe for up to 10% ethanol in its gasoline. There is some tolerance built into the engines. However, especially in the US where gas formulation is not as regulated as it is in Canada, it's beware.
However, if you are burning fuel at too low a temp, I believe the sparkplug color is whiter. Burned cleanly at normal temp, the sparkplugs should be a brown/tan color. Somebody should correct me if I have my science backwards. Burning oil or burning too hot causes your plugs to go black.
MINIs are safe for up to 10% ethanol in its gasoline. There is some tolerance built into the engines. However, especially in the US where gas formulation is not as regulated as it is in Canada, it's beware.
Trending Topics
#9
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. One of my local stations in Idaho has ethenol free premium fuel. They had lots of demand for it because of all the ATV and Snowmobile riders in the area. That is all I've used since the MINI was new and I've haven't had any problems with the High Pressure Fuel Pump.
#10
Ethanol has less energy and ignites at a lower temperature. The higher octane fools your ECU into thinking it's burning high octane gasoline. This causes the timing advance to be wrong causing some engine knock. Engine knocking can damage a lot more than just the spark plugs.
However, if you are burning fuel at too low a temp, I believe the spark plug color is whiter. Burned cleanly at normal temp, the spark plugs should be a brown/tan color. Somebody should correct me if I have my science backwards. Burning oil or burning too hot causes your plugs to go black
However, if you are burning fuel at too low a temp, I believe the spark plug color is whiter. Burned cleanly at normal temp, the spark plugs should be a brown/tan color. Somebody should correct me if I have my science backwards. Burning oil or burning too hot causes your plugs to go black
Higher octane is higher octane. It's a rating related to the ability of the fuel to resist knock. (ignite before the spark plug fires) The ECU take inputs from a lot of sensors, O2 sensor, IAT, throttle position, yada, yada, yada) And from all that, it decides on how much fuel to inject, and when to light it off.
It then looks at the results from the O2 sensor, traction control... And adjusts to try and keep things optimal.
Does ethonol have less energy? Yes it does. You will have lower fuel efficiency using fuel with ethonol. Will it kill your engine? Not directly no. May it have some long term isuues? Probably, but that's a guess. Probablywith the fuel system, and corrosion.
You can tell almost nothing about how the mixture is firing from looking at the spark plug color on a street car. These aren't carburated 60's cars. It just doesn't work that way anymore.
#11
Ethanol...
First, thank all for your input.
When I had my first issue with ethanol, at some point the engine would rattle badly when idling, especially when it was hot (coming into town after 20-30 minutes of highway driving). It got so bad, that the entire car would shake violently, and the engine would shut down. This happened several times, and the MINI dealership where I took it (car was still under warranty) said they have no way of knowing for sure what happened, but they suspected ethanol content. Replacing two damaged spark plugs fixed it (and I don't know what color the deposits were).
Anyway, looking at my owner's manual, it reads:
Fuel specifications
Do not fill the tank with leaded fuel, as this
would cause damage to the catalytic converter.
Do not fill the tank with E85, i.e. fuel containing
85% ethanol, nor with FlexFuel. Otherwise the
engine and fuel supply system will be damaged.<
http://www.minimania.com/pdfile/2007_MINI_Hardtop.pdf
That's pretty straight forward. And again, the problem is that I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THE ETHANOL CONTENT, because gas stations in DC and Maryland don't have to post it. Some do, but you can't trust those who don't post the content.
So I'm resorting to talking to gas station owners on my route to/from work. Hopefully I'll find a couple pure gas stations (and thanks Achilles but VA isn't on my way to work..)
Also check out this US map of pure gas stations:
http://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html
I checked all the ones in Maryland. They are almost all on Maryland's Eastern Shore. If you are not familiar, that's the giant peninsula on the Chesapeake Bay, where there are more boats than cars. I'm assuming stations there have to sell pure gasoline because boat engines can't take ethanol mixes.
When I had my first issue with ethanol, at some point the engine would rattle badly when idling, especially when it was hot (coming into town after 20-30 minutes of highway driving). It got so bad, that the entire car would shake violently, and the engine would shut down. This happened several times, and the MINI dealership where I took it (car was still under warranty) said they have no way of knowing for sure what happened, but they suspected ethanol content. Replacing two damaged spark plugs fixed it (and I don't know what color the deposits were).
Anyway, looking at my owner's manual, it reads:
Fuel specifications
Do not fill the tank with leaded fuel, as this
would cause damage to the catalytic converter.
Do not fill the tank with E85, i.e. fuel containing
85% ethanol, nor with FlexFuel. Otherwise the
engine and fuel supply system will be damaged.<
http://www.minimania.com/pdfile/2007_MINI_Hardtop.pdf
That's pretty straight forward. And again, the problem is that I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THE ETHANOL CONTENT, because gas stations in DC and Maryland don't have to post it. Some do, but you can't trust those who don't post the content.
So I'm resorting to talking to gas station owners on my route to/from work. Hopefully I'll find a couple pure gas stations (and thanks Achilles but VA isn't on my way to work..)
Also check out this US map of pure gas stations:
http://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html
I checked all the ones in Maryland. They are almost all on Maryland's Eastern Shore. If you are not familiar, that's the giant peninsula on the Chesapeake Bay, where there are more boats than cars. I'm assuming stations there have to sell pure gasoline because boat engines can't take ethanol mixes.
#12
Depending on your level of trust in your government (specifically, the EPA) you might find this document to be an interesting read:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/ostp-3.pdf
It lacks any real test data, is based heavily on a 1995 EPA study so it's a bit dated, and contains several claims that aren't well supported, so take it for what it's worth. If nothing more, it is a good starting point for getting educated about the issues.
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/ostp-3.pdf
It lacks any real test data, is based heavily on a 1995 EPA study so it's a bit dated, and contains several claims that aren't well supported, so take it for what it's worth. If nothing more, it is a good starting point for getting educated about the issues.
#13
Man, where do you start?
Higher octane is higher octane. It's a rating related to the ability of the fuel to resist knock. (ignite before the spark plug fires) The ECU take inputs from a lot of sensors, O2 sensor, IAT, throttle position, yada, yada, yada) And from all that, it decides on how much fuel to inject, and when to light it off.
It then looks at the results from the O2 sensor, traction control... And adjusts to try and keep things optimal.
Higher octane is higher octane. It's a rating related to the ability of the fuel to resist knock. (ignite before the spark plug fires) The ECU take inputs from a lot of sensors, O2 sensor, IAT, throttle position, yada, yada, yada) And from all that, it decides on how much fuel to inject, and when to light it off.
It then looks at the results from the O2 sensor, traction control... And adjusts to try and keep things optimal.
Well lets be real here if there is something really wrong with the car the plugs can get fouled and you will see that. Something like an oil leak into one cylinder for instance. But as you say for the most part there will be very little chance of seeing anything. And as for fouling from ethanol no way will anyone see that.
#14
First, thank all for your input.
When I had my first issue with ethanol, at some point the engine would rattle badly when idling, especially when it was hot (coming into town after 20-30 minutes of highway driving). It got so bad, that the entire car would shake violently, and the engine would shut down. This happened several times, and the MINI dealership where I took it (car was still under warranty) said they have no way of knowing for sure what happened, but they suspected ethanol content. Replacing two damaged spark plugs fixed it (and I don't know what color the deposits were).
When I had my first issue with ethanol, at some point the engine would rattle badly when idling, especially when it was hot (coming into town after 20-30 minutes of highway driving). It got so bad, that the entire car would shake violently, and the engine would shut down. This happened several times, and the MINI dealership where I took it (car was still under warranty) said they have no way of knowing for sure what happened, but they suspected ethanol content. Replacing two damaged spark plugs fixed it (and I don't know what color the deposits were).
Anyway, looking at my owner's manual, it reads:
Fuel specifications
Do not fill the tank with leaded fuel, as this
would cause damage to the catalytic converter.
Do not fill the tank with E85, i.e. fuel containing
85% ethanol, nor with FlexFuel. Otherwise the
engine and fuel supply system will be damaged.
http://www.minimania.com/pdfile/2007_MINI_Hardtop.pdf
That's pretty straight forward.
Fuel specifications
Do not fill the tank with leaded fuel, as this
would cause damage to the catalytic converter.
Do not fill the tank with E85, i.e. fuel containing
85% ethanol, nor with FlexFuel. Otherwise the
engine and fuel supply system will be damaged.
http://www.minimania.com/pdfile/2007_MINI_Hardtop.pdf
That's pretty straight forward.
And again, the problem is that I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THE ETHANOL CONTENT, because gas stations in DC and Maryland don't have to post it. Some do, but you can't trust those who don't post the content.
So I'm resorting to talking to gas station owners on my route to/from work. Hopefully I'll find a couple pure gas stations (and thanks Achilles but VA isn't on my way to work..)
So I'm resorting to talking to gas station owners on my route to/from work. Hopefully I'll find a couple pure gas stations (and thanks Achilles but VA isn't on my way to work..)
#15
#17
#18
Ethanol has less energy and ignites at a lower temperature. The higher octane fools your ECU into thinking it's burning high octane gasoline. This causes the timing advance to be wrong causing some engine knock. Engine knocking can damage a lot more than just the spark plugs
Depending on which calculation you use for octane E85 varies between 100-105 octane. Pure ethanol is like 110+.
Ethanol's octane rating is not the cause of issues on cars not designed to run it.
#19
- Mark
#21
10% Ethanol or less is still bad, according to MINI
Markjenn - the manual does say that 10% (or up to 10%) ethanol is bad:
Use high-quality brands
Field experience has indicated significant differences in fuel quality: volatility, composition,
additives, etc., among gasolines offered for sale
in the United States and Canada. Fuels containing up to and including 10% ethanol or other
oxygenates with up to 2.8% oxygen by weight,
that is, 15% MTBE or 3% methanol plus an
equivalent amount of co-solvent, will not void
the applicable warranties with respect to defects
in materials or workmanship.
So sounds like they are saying - we know it's bad stuff. And to top that off, right after they mention that ethanol content is bad (even 10% or less), they continue to say:
The use of poor-quality fuels may result in
drivability, starting and stalling problems (this is the problem I had. OB)
especially under certain environmental conditions such as high ambient temperature and high altitude.
Should you encounter driveability problems
which you suspect could be related to the fuel
you are using, we recommend that you respond
by switching to a recognized high-quality brand
such as gasoline that is advertised as Top Tier
Detergent Gasoline.
Failure to comply with these recommendations
may also result in unscheduled maintenance.
Use high-quality brands
Field experience has indicated significant differences in fuel quality: volatility, composition,
additives, etc., among gasolines offered for sale
in the United States and Canada. Fuels containing up to and including 10% ethanol or other
oxygenates with up to 2.8% oxygen by weight,
that is, 15% MTBE or 3% methanol plus an
equivalent amount of co-solvent, will not void
the applicable warranties with respect to defects
in materials or workmanship.
So sounds like they are saying - we know it's bad stuff. And to top that off, right after they mention that ethanol content is bad (even 10% or less), they continue to say:
The use of poor-quality fuels may result in
drivability, starting and stalling problems (this is the problem I had. OB)
especially under certain environmental conditions such as high ambient temperature and high altitude.
Should you encounter driveability problems
which you suspect could be related to the fuel
you are using, we recommend that you respond
by switching to a recognized high-quality brand
such as gasoline that is advertised as Top Tier
Detergent Gasoline.
Failure to comply with these recommendations
may also result in unscheduled maintenance.
#22
Markjenn - the manual does say that 10% (or up to 10%) ethanol is bad:
Field experience has indicated significant differences in fuel quality: volatility, composition, additives, etc., among gasolines offered for sale in the United States and Canada.
Fuels containing up to and including 10% ethanol or other oxygenates with up to 2.8% oxygen by weight, that is, 15% MTBE or 3% methanol plus an
equivalent amount of co-solvent, will not void the applicable warranties with respect to defects in materials or workmanship.
Field experience has indicated significant differences in fuel quality: volatility, composition, additives, etc., among gasolines offered for sale in the United States and Canada.
Fuels containing up to and including 10% ethanol or other oxygenates with up to 2.8% oxygen by weight, that is, 15% MTBE or 3% methanol plus an
equivalent amount of co-solvent, will not void the applicable warranties with respect to defects in materials or workmanship.
Looks like you have your mind made up to blame ethanol for everything and anything about your car that you don't like. Party on.
- Mark
#23
The first statement says that fuel quality varies. (Duh.) The second says that up to 10% ethanol will not void the warranty. From this, you get that ethanol in any concentration is "bad". Bizarre interpretation of these statements.
Looks like you have your mind made up to blame ethanol for everything and anything about your car that you don't like. Party on.
- Mark
Looks like you have your mind made up to blame ethanol for everything and anything about your car that you don't like. Party on.
- Mark
#24
Mark- I just read and copied two paragraphs from my manual.
One says that ethanol mixed fuel, 10% or under, will result in "significant differences".
And yes, this wouldn't void the warranty. Ok.
And right after they explain this, they tell you that the use of poor quality fuels (and I'm assuming they are referring to the same fuel types they just described in the preceeding paragraph) may result in all sorts of havoc.
And it just so happened that some of this havoc happened to my car. And it just so happened that the service manager of a large mini dealership thought ethanol was to blame.
So Mark, thanks for your concern.
One says that ethanol mixed fuel, 10% or under, will result in "significant differences".
And yes, this wouldn't void the warranty. Ok.
And right after they explain this, they tell you that the use of poor quality fuels (and I'm assuming they are referring to the same fuel types they just described in the preceeding paragraph) may result in all sorts of havoc.
And it just so happened that some of this havoc happened to my car. And it just so happened that the service manager of a large mini dealership thought ethanol was to blame.
So Mark, thanks for your concern.
#25
I too had the 2 spark plug damage and was told they was going to fix it under good faith or something like that. Now I buy from the exact Shell station the the dealership uses since I live across the street. Any mention of me using bad gas and Im gonna ask them where they buy there gas from and if they have ever had any issues from that station. Then I'm going to show them all the receipts with a log of milage.