R56 Is it my imagination or are there more problems reported for the Cooper S than non-S?
#1
04-20-2011, 04:42 PM
Is it my imagination or are there more problems reported for the Cooper S than non-S?
Been doing a lot of reading on this and other forums and maybe it's just my imagination but it looks to me like there are many more problems reported with the Cooper S than the standard Cooper even though more regular Coopers are sold.
Is this actually the case or am I just perceiving it wrong?
Is this actually the case or am I just perceiving it wrong?
#3
04-20-2011, 05:29 PM
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I hope some S owners will chime in as there are some of us that have very little go wromg in our S's.I'm still wondering if the ones that seem problamatic are the ones that go far tooo long on their maintenance(not good for any car)and beat the ....out of it and then wonder why it broke.They are very tempermental cars and if you don't change the fluids, etc and let them go you will have problems.As I said this is with any car if you don't take care of it.I baby mine and its been really trouble free.Oh btw it's an '07 w/54.000 mi.
#4
04-20-2011, 05:35 PM
its a completely different higher compression turbo engine.
there are probably a lot more of the s/jcw cars on these forums as well.
IMO forums seem to spawn from the whole performance and tweaking of these cars, and it is sort of just the case.
Overall there is more to go wrong with an S vs a justa (thanks BMW), and since the forums are here to help people, that is what your going to see...problems and people helping. In the end a Justa will more likely than not, get you less dealer visits than its higher performance counterpart lol
there are probably a lot more of the s/jcw cars on these forums as well.
IMO forums seem to spawn from the whole performance and tweaking of these cars, and it is sort of just the case.
Overall there is more to go wrong with an S vs a justa (thanks BMW), and since the forums are here to help people, that is what your going to see...problems and people helping. In the end a Justa will more likely than not, get you less dealer visits than its higher performance counterpart lol
#6
04-20-2011, 05:56 PM
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I'm gonna throw out a few thoughts that I myself weighed in my recent decision to buy a MCS.
Just an observation about reliability conclusions via forum research - many (NOT all) people on forums 1) like to modify cars; 2) go to forums to find fixes for problem; 3) and the average population on forums like NAM have higher percentage of amateur racers (track and road) than you would find in the overall population of MINI car owners.
Just take a look around on the road you and will notice just how many MINI owners have never spent a dime on aftermarket mods, and have no clue what a Owners Race Day is. Again just an observation and it does not apply to all of us on forums.
If you want to find out more about reliability you would be just as well off, asking MINI owners at a gas station about how they like the reliability of their MINI. Actually that would actually be a fairer assessment as it would truly be a random sampling of owners (a forum is a very segmented sampling of owners).
Heck, I currently own a 2008 Toyota 4Runner (being sold to buy a MINI) and if you watched the news, you would think my SUV is a flaming ball of a death trap. Yet, I have never had a single problem and am at 40k miles, and I still know how to find the brake pedal.
Plus there are a lot of MC owners on NAM as well, but even though they seeming have less problems with their cars, you still don't see a flood of posts saying hey look my MC just hit 100k and is bullet proof...for better or worse people just don't routinely post that kind of stuff on forums...its an online forum not Facebook.
One bonus for your piece of mind is MINI still has the highest owner loyalty in its class.
http://www.ridelust.com/what-vehicles-have-the-most-loyal-customers/
Just an observation about reliability conclusions via forum research - many (NOT all) people on forums 1) like to modify cars; 2) go to forums to find fixes for problem; 3) and the average population on forums like NAM have higher percentage of amateur racers (track and road) than you would find in the overall population of MINI car owners.
Just take a look around on the road you and will notice just how many MINI owners have never spent a dime on aftermarket mods, and have no clue what a Owners Race Day is. Again just an observation and it does not apply to all of us on forums.
If you want to find out more about reliability you would be just as well off, asking MINI owners at a gas station about how they like the reliability of their MINI. Actually that would actually be a fairer assessment as it would truly be a random sampling of owners (a forum is a very segmented sampling of owners).
Heck, I currently own a 2008 Toyota 4Runner (being sold to buy a MINI) and if you watched the news, you would think my SUV is a flaming ball of a death trap. Yet, I have never had a single problem and am at 40k miles, and I still know how to find the brake pedal.
Plus there are a lot of MC owners on NAM as well, but even though they seeming have less problems with their cars, you still don't see a flood of posts saying hey look my MC just hit 100k and is bullet proof...for better or worse people just don't routinely post that kind of stuff on forums...its an online forum not Facebook.
One bonus for your piece of mind is MINI still has the highest owner loyalty in its class.
http://www.ridelust.com/what-vehicles-have-the-most-loyal-customers/
"There are two kinds of MINI owners that I’m aware of: those that never have a single problem with their cars and those that have ongoing, unresolved problems with their cars. Even customers with problem Minis seem to accept it as the price of admission, and in some cases, part of the car’s quirky charm. In any case, the MINI COOPER repeats as the class leader from 2009, and rack up owner loyalty of 28.2%."
#7
04-20-2011, 06:45 PM
Been doing a lot of reading on this and other forums and maybe it's just my imagination but it looks to me like there are many more problems reported with the Cooper S than the standard Cooper even though more regular Coopers are sold.
Is this actually the case or am I just perceiving it wrong?
Is this actually the case or am I just perceiving it wrong?
I have a 2009 JCW with 25,000 miles. No issues to date.
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#10
04-21-2011, 06:31 AM
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#11
04-21-2011, 07:44 AM
#12
04-21-2011, 07:46 AM
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I have had mine for one year and 5100 miles with zero problems. Couldn't be happier....
Larry
Larry
All in all, I am very happy with my new MCS.
Agree, for a variety of reasons already enumerated, this forum is about the least scientific method of determining prevalence of issues with MCS or Justa.
Happy Motoring!
#13
04-21-2011, 07:56 AM
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Seeing as I just ordered an '11 MCSa, I hoping that the '11s are like the 06's in that they were the 4th year of their respective gen. and by then most of the problems were worked out and the car was the most reliable of that series. From what I understand the '12 MCS will be the last of our r56 gen, and I don't know that there will be a significant amount of change between '11 and '12.
#14
04-21-2011, 08:47 AM
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Personally if I was buying new or leasing I'd be comfortable getting the S, warranty aside. Buying used, you don't really know how the last owner took care of the car, and a turbo/supercharged car is more likely to have been driven hard and beat up. I feel comfortable with my used Justa that I can turn into a quicker car and flog it myself, but I'd be wary of buying a used performance car. Just the way I see it.
#15
04-21-2011, 02:39 PM
Been doing a lot of reading on this and other forums and maybe it's just my imagination but it looks to me like there are many more problems reported with the Cooper S than the standard Cooper even though more regular Coopers are sold.
Is this actually the case or am I just perceiving it wrong?
Is this actually the case or am I just perceiving it wrong?
#16
04-21-2011, 03:06 PM
#17
04-21-2011, 04:29 PM
To the OP, I have the same impression, but for more than just forum comments. I tend to agree with those who note that NAM is more of an enthusiast site, and problems are discussed more than non-problems. But, I would also offer the data point from the latest Consumer Reports car issue (pg 61):
Now there will be many who will argue that CR has an agenda, but I have read about their methodology, participated in their surveys, and as an engineer who has worked in high reliability systems (commercial aircraft and implantable medical devices) believe that their statistics are accurate, for what they are -- lagging indicators of the reliability produced by the design and manufacturing processes of that particular manufacturer.
That said, I also think folks with S engines are more likely to push them. I don't think there a large enough fraction that are "modded" to affect CR's data - that is a narrow niche (richly represented here on NAM!). If you get an MCS will it have problems, by no means -- it just defines the set of dice you get to roll when you buy any complex product.
I ended up ordering a "justa" for several reasons -- one was the potential for lower reliability (after nearly 30 years of only owning Honda/Acura vehicles, which were rated "much better than average" I was willing to gamble on average more than lower). Other was gas mileage (as I think in the 8 years I intend to own the car, gas will keep rising -- we will look back on the good old days of $3.50 gas...) The fact that I keep cars well past their factory warranty is a factor. And, with the price difference, I could rationalize more "tech toys" on a Justa than I would have been willing to get with an MCS.
Yes, I worry that I will miss the fun of an MCS. But all of my test drives of the base model were great fun -- it has lots of pep for all of the normal driving I do. I don't take cars to a track, and rarely if ever break 80mph. The "justa" was above 70 at the end of a freeway entrance ramp in 3rd without a problem.
I totally get why others with different sets of values in their purchase decisions reach different conclusions! That is why there are so many choices out there.
I just(a) have to wait for it to get build and get here....
Originally Posted by Consumer Reports
Reliability of the non-S versions has been average; the S is well below average.
That said, I also think folks with S engines are more likely to push them. I don't think there a large enough fraction that are "modded" to affect CR's data - that is a narrow niche (richly represented here on NAM!). If you get an MCS will it have problems, by no means -- it just defines the set of dice you get to roll when you buy any complex product.
I ended up ordering a "justa" for several reasons -- one was the potential for lower reliability (after nearly 30 years of only owning Honda/Acura vehicles, which were rated "much better than average" I was willing to gamble on average more than lower). Other was gas mileage (as I think in the 8 years I intend to own the car, gas will keep rising -- we will look back on the good old days of $3.50 gas...) The fact that I keep cars well past their factory warranty is a factor. And, with the price difference, I could rationalize more "tech toys" on a Justa than I would have been willing to get with an MCS.
Yes, I worry that I will miss the fun of an MCS. But all of my test drives of the base model were great fun -- it has lots of pep for all of the normal driving I do. I don't take cars to a track, and rarely if ever break 80mph. The "justa" was above 70 at the end of a freeway entrance ramp in 3rd without a problem.
I totally get why others with different sets of values in their purchase decisions reach different conclusions! That is why there are so many choices out there.
I just(a) have to wait for it to get build and get here....
#18
04-21-2011, 06:03 PM
Just a thought.......
Take into consideration that the Cooper S is more performance minded than the Justa.... so you will tend to abuse it (gas it) a little more than the other...
If you are buying a base cooper , chances are you are trying to aim for fuel economy and have a more decent foot on the throttle... if you buy a Cooper S ... you are a gearhead and eventually you are going to do what a gearhead mini driver does.... sound that BOV or just be a spirited driver and gas it over twisting roads or in an open road ...
It all depends on the use and the maintenance you give it... that being said, it all falls in the use that the driver gives it's MINI ..
Take into consideration that the Cooper S is more performance minded than the Justa.... so you will tend to abuse it (gas it) a little more than the other...
If you are buying a base cooper , chances are you are trying to aim for fuel economy and have a more decent foot on the throttle... if you buy a Cooper S ... you are a gearhead and eventually you are going to do what a gearhead mini driver does.... sound that BOV or just be a spirited driver and gas it over twisting roads or in an open road ...
It all depends on the use and the maintenance you give it... that being said, it all falls in the use that the driver gives it's MINI ..
#19
04-21-2011, 07:55 PM
Part of the reason it seems like the S has more problems is because of many of the reasons stated above:
-The S is more common on this site.
-The S is more commonly modded.
-The S is more commonly driven hard.
-Etc.
That being said, it's fairly clear that the Cooper doesn't have the timing chain tensioner problems as often based on posts here. It's far from scientific, but tensioner problems are rarely heard of on Coopers and relatively common (on the forum, at least) for the MCS. The greater percentage of MCS owners only goes so far.
Additionally, some of the more common problems mentioned on this forum cannot possibly happen to the Cooper because it doesn't even HAVE the parts that fail or the parts required for the problem to occur. For instance, the high-pressure fuel pump is a relatively common problem for the MCS. The Cooper doesn't even have one because it's not direct injected. The melting hood scoop problem... need I say more?
There are circumstances that make the MCS seem worse than it is compared to the Cooper, but there are plenty of facts (like above) and surveys (like CR) that indicate the Cooper actually IS more reliable.
Don't get me wrong, that's not a knock on the MCS, and it shouldn't be taken as such. It also doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of totally reliable MCSs. However, the MCS is *relatively* less reliable than the Cooper, like the OP says.
-The S is more common on this site.
-The S is more commonly modded.
-The S is more commonly driven hard.
-Etc.
That being said, it's fairly clear that the Cooper doesn't have the timing chain tensioner problems as often based on posts here. It's far from scientific, but tensioner problems are rarely heard of on Coopers and relatively common (on the forum, at least) for the MCS. The greater percentage of MCS owners only goes so far.
Additionally, some of the more common problems mentioned on this forum cannot possibly happen to the Cooper because it doesn't even HAVE the parts that fail or the parts required for the problem to occur. For instance, the high-pressure fuel pump is a relatively common problem for the MCS. The Cooper doesn't even have one because it's not direct injected. The melting hood scoop problem... need I say more?
There are circumstances that make the MCS seem worse than it is compared to the Cooper, but there are plenty of facts (like above) and surveys (like CR) that indicate the Cooper actually IS more reliable.
Don't get me wrong, that's not a knock on the MCS, and it shouldn't be taken as such. It also doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of totally reliable MCSs. However, the MCS is *relatively* less reliable than the Cooper, like the OP says.
#20
04-21-2011, 09:08 PM
^^^^
That's true....
there are far more systems involved in the Cooper S (Direct Injection, a Turbocharger system that translates into more stress on the timing chain tensioner and creates fuel pump failure) these will contribute to more problems on the reliability of the vehicle...
That being said, yeah!... the less electronics, systems, tecnology or w/e options you add will make the vehicle more reliable.... doesn't necesarily makes it more exciting but that's one of the perks of buying a car... you want reliable?.. buy a Toyota!! .. jk!! haha..
Bmw 760's are a 100k+ cars.. in EVERY sense of the word ... they do depreciate very fast... but this doesn't make it less of a car... it's just harder to keep up in maintenance because of the zillion technological systems that are @ work..
take into mind that depreciation is the cost of the car + Annual Maintenance that contribute to their fast or slow increase or viceversa.. MINI's are doing great in this department.. Overall
Final Statement?.. Justa > Cooper S in reliability / fuel economy
That's true....
there are far more systems involved in the Cooper S (Direct Injection, a Turbocharger system that translates into more stress on the timing chain tensioner and creates fuel pump failure) these will contribute to more problems on the reliability of the vehicle...
That being said, yeah!... the less electronics, systems, tecnology or w/e options you add will make the vehicle more reliable.... doesn't necesarily makes it more exciting but that's one of the perks of buying a car... you want reliable?.. buy a Toyota!! .. jk!! haha..
Bmw 760's are a 100k+ cars.. in EVERY sense of the word ... they do depreciate very fast... but this doesn't make it less of a car... it's just harder to keep up in maintenance because of the zillion technological systems that are @ work..
take into mind that depreciation is the cost of the car + Annual Maintenance that contribute to their fast or slow increase or viceversa.. MINI's are doing great in this department.. Overall
Final Statement?.. Justa > Cooper S in reliability / fuel economy
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