Oh yeah, I like EBC red pads. Less dust than stock and better bite, even when cold. But plan on replacing the rotors when the pads are worn.

And unfortunately, everything that I've put on the car rusts. springs, RSB, undercar brace, shocks. But what a fun winter ride....

Have fun,
Mike

 

My only comment to Mike's post would be that the stock suspension comes with a 17mm RSB and a 22.5 mm FSB whereas the sports suspension comes with a 18 mm RSB and a 23.5 mm RSB. The 25 mm bar is a better match with the Sports suspension FSB than it is with the stock S FSB. That is, the front to rear balance is less affected by the change to the 25 mm bar. Actually this is likely a pretty good setup.

Because the OP has the stock S suspension the 19 mm RSB will be more noticeable than what you saw and the 20 mm RSB on the softest or mid setting will likely give similar handling characteristics as Mike's car.

A thing to remember the front grip can be improved by a larger FSB as it will flatten out the front of the car in a corner and it will allow both front tires to grip better. If you add to this a larger RSB, but not as large as you might need to go if only changing the RSB, it will balance the handling to further improve the grip in the front without as much loss of grip in the back. This is a little simplistic, but the point is there. Changes to stiffer stocks and springs, which will change the rate at which weight transfer occurs, will lessen the tendency to go into snap oversteer. So it is a mixed bag at best when you make changes.

I am just offering alternative thoughts here. There is no right or wrong if it "works" for you.

As Mike said...Have Fun

 

Looks like springs are your weakest point (Eibach) then tires.

Eibachs don't provide nearly enough spring rate for the drop.

Swift Spec R is a much better choice.

 

Hi all,

Thanks for the inmense amount of feedback! I took all of your advice and discussed it with my local Mini Club. Got feedback from experienced track drivers and I also had to play with options available in my country that would help mitigate the hit on the wallet :P

I'll be sending the mini to the shop next week to get the following done:
Eibach FSB 26mm
Eibach RSB 20mm (setting it on the stiffest setting)
Eibach Pro-kit Springs (can't go lower than these springs where I live)
Spark Plugs (NGK IR ILZKR8C-8G)
Brake Caliper Fluid Change
OEM Front JCW Caliper Braking Pad Change (If needed)
45k kms Maintenance

After speaking to locals, I'll skip the camber plate change. Like someone also mentioned here, it seems a bit too much for a daily driver with casual spirited drives. The bushings will also be replaced when the time comes, no rush there.

The spark plug change came up due to my mini having an engine-knocking history. It does it about once a month. I told my experience of when the engine-knocking occurs to a local mini owner and he said he had experienced the same thing and changed the spark plugs for colder ones. The plugs I've mentioned come from the Citroen DS3R. Many of the club members are running these plugs in their MCS so I won't have any fitment issues.

And the rest of the things on the list are just things that came up with time

 

Tires Tires Tires and lightest wheels and more than one set up. My shop will bring in tires to compare not mounted but at least its a start. I run Michelin pilot sport AS/3 in both 215 45 17 and 205 55 16 on Enki rpf1's you would not believe the difference just a change of size on the same model tires could make. Also set up is about where and how and why and preference so add adjustability as much as possible. Also learn to do your own alignment you cant run to a shop just to set up for a track day or a weekend of twisties or some dirt roads or winter or into the city, and no I dont mess with things every day but every month or two. Gearing and different tire sets is one way to make a fun handling set up, you need to find the rolling height of each set up often you will find revolutions per mile, a smaller tire will add acceleration and torque but at the cost of top speed, and the size brakes you can add. A thinner tire adds more precission and tighter handling but if you have turns with bumps a bit more height is better. PS ties can be within I think 10% of ratio size so confirm actual size under inflation. Also Tire pressure is a great way to tune to some extent just check the max pressure for the tire and watch wear patterns. So much about tires pay attention to sidewall construction pure grip is great but only when aplied correctly for the situation. Oh read up,,,,,, once you get slip angles, and unsprung weight, and spring rates and, shock valving then you will be able to try stuff out. Oh brake pads next on list again they are all a bit different and more than one set is good. also running extra sets of ties and brakes are wear parts so as long as you are keeping the car they are economical as you are going to use them anyway.

 

You are going to like the sway bars.

But, I have to disagree with your locals. Camber is the number one thing that MINIs need. No matter what else you do, without added camber, you will roll the front tires over on their sidewalls as soon as you push the car. The -1.5 deg the IE Fixed plates will give you is perfect for the street. And these are made from BMW stock parts and will last forever with no added noise or added tire wear. You are spending a lot of money to make some major changes but without camber you won't be able to take full advantage of those changes.

 

Hey, let me add that there is no harm in not doing the camber plates. It is just that with a MINI that is where others and I would have started. They are a moderately easy mod to make later and there are some good DIY instructions if you want to tackle it yourself.

Enjoy your upcoming changes

 

I agree with Eddie07S, you want more camber, especially front. Since you're doing the springs, you'll have everything out anyway so adding camber plates takes zero extra labor.

 

Thanks a lot Eddie! I haven't discarded the camber plates completely but they aren't as accessible as the other options mentioned above where I live.

The camber plates make perfect sense, but I'll hold off on some things so that I have something to look forward to

I would love to tackle it myself but I have zero mechanical experience. This is my daily driver so I can't afford to try to swap something myself which may cause problems. Also timing is everything for this mods because I can't be without a car...so while on vacation next week, she'll be able to get a makeover

I'll update this thread when she has everything installed!

 

I understand priorities
It took me a couple of years to get done the things I did.

I like your sway bar choices. That will be better for the street than the larger ones I have. Just a heads up - you may find that going into some driveways that have a steep entrance that you may be teetering on two wheels on opposite sides of the car if you are a bit diagonal going into it. This will be normal. Just keep the car moving and you'll be fine.

I think you are going to like what you have when you are done. Looking forward to hearing about your experience when done.

 

Wait, you're going to lower it on stock shocks? Bad idea if you want a handling monster.

Also Sway Bars are band aids and should be treated as such. They are traction robbing devices. When cornering, the outside tire is the last place that takes a load. You're forcing the stock shock to deal with a rate and length of spring it is not valved for and placing additional stress on a stock tire. Meaning that tire will lose traction sooner.

I think you've done the opposite of your original goal.

 

Sway Bars Are Good. Just understand what they Do. This is tuning and they will change how the car handles and shifts its weight. remember there is a timing factor as the suspension works.

Consider doing the front bushings if the front bar is changing.

I like doing the rear bar on all my front drive projects, and get an adjustable one if I can

Its a good idea to at least read up on shock valving. Look up how 4 way adjustable shocks work and are adjusted

 

Have to disagree-

Sway bars are anything but a "band aid".

Sway bars are an important part of a well designed suspension. They are no less important than springs or shocks and each of these three components have an equal share in that design. Their function is to provide roll stiffness. Without sway bars your suspension is no better than that of a 1950's Hudson or MGA. Race cars at that time evolved sway bars to control body roll without having to resort to really stiff springs which creates other handling problems. Without roll stiffness you can't keep the wheels at their ideal angle when the car is in a turn. This is what sway bars were designed to do; keep a car flat in corners. They also provide a really easy way to change the front to rear balance.

So, no, not a band aid.

 

Handling is a big subject, Monster handling needs a specific goal I would set up different for city or country or track or dirt or...... and for driving style. You need to try stuff but be prepared to make more changes as you learn its more about how than a set formula. And again Tires and no one tire is it. and adjustability.

 

I'll give you more than a band aid, but they should be the LAST major handling component to change. Not the first.

Tires, shocks, springs, sway bars. As you said "well designed suspension". If I haven't missed anything, OP is running regular street tires, stock shocks, and a soft progressive lowering spring.

It seems as though OP is just throwing random parts at his car that won't bring him any closer to his goal.

 

Ok there are so many ways to go wrong.... But what is the right way?? I can only be sure of the things Ive tried and only for those times and places.... Ha obviously.

I can guess about what to try next (actually procrastinating at the moment), and since I value others advice I try and share. So I cant fault an opinion given in good faith.

Anti roll bars can be used to good effect in my experience. Anti roll bars look simple but are actually complicated when you start getting into how they really work in real time. The best thing about them for me has been the ability to help reduce some roll but also understeer and oversteer and they can be made adjusable both in rate and linkage load, etc. So as a place to start I cant see how this is a bad thing. as for this exact set up I havent tried it so what can I say but it sounds like a first step. I try and do a complete build including brakes but bushings are always a big question on how hard to go, so getting everything just so never happens in one shot. (oh springs yes extra sets of springs, yes I have a multiples of spares thing)

If there is one really important thing maybe its that even if you are getting this work done for you, you have to own it and understand it and be able to inspect it.

Still Tires,,,, a couple different sizes and types, and brake pads would be my first advice.

 

Check our site for the best info and deals on handling from those who have spent over 40 years with this brand on the street and winning multiple championships on the track:

http://new.minimania.com/ss/SUSPENSION_NM

Drive Hard. Drive Safe. Keep Grinning.

 

One difficult in setting up these cars is knowing what spring rates you are getting when you buy a spring package or coilovers. They all say how great they are, how they will improve the handling and provide some non-descriptive words about how much stiffer they are than stock. But even at that it is not clear whether "stock" is the base Cooper, the S or a JCW. So you wind up buying based on a guess and opinion of others, which may not match what you want and could send you in the wrong direction for your setup.

 

I think we may have lost the OP.

Have you really seen coilovers not list spring rates? (swift and QA1 have nice springs)

Also materials are important in all these parts, even the standard bar steel is variable and I dont see torsional rates listed with anti roll-bars so going by mm is kind of hard. not to mention design and arm length.

I read one coilover manufacturers info about how the one way adjustability was so you didnt have to worry about how to set things up.

We need a Butt-O Hardness Ride Meter, Hmmm could that be an app

And too really get so off topic any one live on the NY side by Lime Rock I might be moving that way

 

I doubt we lost the OP. He's bought his stuff and is going to be putting it on. I really think he is going to get what he is looking for. I expect that the OP will post once he is done and has had a chance to try it.

I know it goes against the grain for what people believe is the "way" to setup a MINI, but the large front and rear sway bar setup I have was not a mistake. The car corners very flat with no understeer. I made this change with the MINI springs and shocks and was pleasantly impressed with improved handling. I have since replaced the shocks when I realized the MINI shocks were shot.

The Bilstein coilovers don't list rates. I know that is only one. AST and Olines (spelling?) I am not sure about. Swifts are a replacement spring and they are good about listing stuff. But springs like TSW don't list rates. It would be nice to know. Even the MINI springs seem to be a mystery.

As for spring rates and material properties, spring rates are only a function of the material's modulus. All carbon steels have about the same modulus. So, you can till the difference just based on diameter and lengths. Different steels are better suited to being made into springs and some of those are better than others. For sway bars they at least list percentage increase which is better than nothing.

i like the Butt-O Hardness Ride Meter app ideal

Let us know if you move this way; feel free to PM me. I am an hour and a half from LRP and Palmer, and 3.5 hours from WGI.

 

Yes modulus E, but its a funny thing with steels, batches are different unless you get a super clean tool type and with world wide markets its a bit funny. Ive gotten fasteners with a rating and had them fail even on the Mini the timing rail chain holders not the fat ones from the dealer were off and not even holding standard torque. Yes E should be about the same but with some of the fun new steels and special mixes I think in practice you will see a difference.

Yes for tuning sway bars are good just wish there were more sets with clamp type attachments like on club racers. Its on the never ending list to make some custom tube Anti roll-bars out of something fun. Can bushings be made hardness adjustable?

Oh no Do I have to make the Butt-O Hardness ride meter app, should it have an animation or be serious. Or we could just graph our phone accelerometers and share the data. We need some local test spots or a made up coarse.

Hmm I wounder what kinds of faults could be diagnosed by the accelerometer like using an ekg or stethoscope. Can we hack the knock sensor and graph the output.

Well Im back down the rabbit hole, Oh I never got out.....

 

Several coilovers offer custom rates. If certain springs/coilovers don't list rates, they're probably progressive and I'm not interested.

I have Swift Spec R springs (4.5K/5.5K) cause I knew from autocrossing the car stock with good tires I wanted a higher spring rate in rear relative to front. Paired with Koni yellows and stock sway bars it works well, albeit I need more front camber.

 

Yes, some coilovers do, but many come with their own springs and you don't have a choice. We need need more choices

It is understandable that you would go for the springs that you chose. And you have a good set of shocks. It makes sense for autocross. Springs provide a certain amount of roll stifness. So by going to those springs you stiffened the roll stiffness both front and rear, the same as putting in larger front and rear sway bars. You also moved the front to rear stiffness ratio to the rear which makes the rear looser. But you also created a stiffer ride. This can also be a good thing for autocross. Of course the adjustable shocks makes it possible to modify the front to rear balance and to match the dampening to the stiffer springs. Good for autocross or the track.

However, for the street or the track it may not be a good thing to stiffen the ride too much as you may need compliance to deal with bumps and irregularities. So stiffer springs and shocks may not be a good way to go to increase roll stiffness. In this case the only other option is to change sway bars. You also may not want to loosen the rear of the car too much (eg: too large of a rear bar) because in a high speed turn you may find yourself going down the track backwards (I've seen that one more than once). A really good autocross car is not likely to make a good track car and a really good track car is not likely to be a good autocross car.

It sounds like you have a setup that is working for you and that's good. I come from a different experience and offer up that up as a consideration for the OP. There are options and hopefully this discussion helps the OP with matching those options to their objectives.

 

Wow! This thread took off! Haha. Don't worry guys I'm still here!

I just got my car back so can't describe the feeling in detail yet but its definetly different. The spark plug change has also made if A LOT more responsive. There was also an unintentional oil change haha. Now I'm running Royal Purple 10w40...which I was gonna change anyways but when the next oil change was required. I don't know if its due to the 2 weeks away from the car but these two changes make the car feel much more alive

I read all the posts above and while yes, it does sound like I'm just throwing car parts at the mini and see what happens, I did take my time to do a pretty deep amount of research before following through. Both in this forum and by talking to people in my local mini cooper club.

Also, a spontaneous track event came up and I'll be attending on August 20th. Really looking forward to it as I'll be able to push the car to the limit and really take advantage of the sway bar/spring setup. From there, I guess I'll describe what I felt the car was doing and hopefully with that I can get more straightforward conclusions for potential mods that will fix that specific problem.

Here's a picture of the car before (below) and after(above) with the new setup. Really happy how it turned out and its not as bad as I thought when going over speed bumps




I'll post an update once I've had more time with the car and the new setup! Thanks for all the replies!

 

Good to hear from you.

And that you are happy with it. Let us know how the track day goes.