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And that you are happy with it. Let us know how the track day goes.
Will do!
As a quick update after using the car for two days....this thing is fantastic and everything I was looking for
I feel like I have eliminated all body roll from the car...it just corners so awesome! Its definitely a lot more stiff but I love it! 26mm FSB and 20mm RSB set on the second setting (stiff). Loving the lowered look as well and low enough for me haha .
I've been bitten by the mod bug so I already got more things planned haha but track day will be definilety fun and eye opening to see where do I go from my current setup. The powerflex front control arm bushings are at the top of the list. Still unsure about the front camber plates, if to go for fixed or adjustable or ignore it for now until I can afford coilovers to just get the whole package instead of building piece by piece.
Once the change is needed, I'll look into summer tires to go along with this new setup. The club just got a partnership with Bridgestone, so I'll be looking at their Potenza line (the RE050A or the ones you recommended Eddie Potenza RE-71R)...this is still my daily, so I can't go too extreme on tires.
Last but not least, I was talked into bumping up the horsepower a bit. I'm not a fan because its my daily and I don't want to worry about pushing the engine too much, but I was recommended an ALTA CAI and the Race Chip. I know getting an ECU tune like Manic is recommended by most, but like I said, I'm not really interested in power. However, I do want to hear your opinions on the intake and chip mentioned (not a fan of the JB+ either as I've heard bad experiences with it).
That's that really . Maybe next year I'll be on the lookout for some lightweight wheels such as OZ, Enkei, SSR, Volk in the market. Where I am from, it is really a matter of luck and timing for a set of these to pop up. Buying them new its expensive as hell.
Thanks Eddie for your recommendations. You really gave me what I was looking for!
If you like what you have now, then you will really like camber plates. For a street car with street tires, you do not need adjustable plates. The -1.5 deg that you get with the IE fixed camber plates is more than enough. These are better for the street because they are made from street parts.
Did you get a wheel alignment? Did you have the pins pulled from the top of the strut towers?
A suggestion for tires is the Continental DS. They are summer tire but should wear better than the RE71Rs.
If you like what you have now, then you will really like camber plates. For a street car with street tires, you do not need adjustable plates. The -1.5 deg that you get with the IE fixed camber plates is more than enough. These are better for the street because they are made from street parts.
Did you get a wheel alignment? Did you have the pins pulled from the top of the strut towers?
A suggestion for tires is the Continental DS. They are summer tire but should wear better than the RE71Rs.
I haven't gotten a wheel alignment yet. Anything in particular I should ask to get done when I go get it?. And how do I know if the pins were pulled?
I haven't gotten a wheel alignment yet. Anything in particular I should ask to get done when I go get it?. And how do I know if the pins were pulled?
Open the hood and look at the top of the strut towers. You should see the three nuts that hold the top of the strut in place; there will be 2 outboard nuts and 1 inboard nut. Look for a white plastic pin sticking up next to one or the other of the 2 outboard nuts. There should be a pin sticking up out of both shock towers. If that pin is there in either or both towers, then you have the stock alignment.
If the pin is missing from both towers then you need to remove one of the nuts to see if someone has already made the camber change. Once the nut has been removed you will see that the stud is in a slot in the shock tower. If the stud is to the outboard end of the slot then you have the stock alignment. If this is the case then you have just earned yourself an additional -0.3 deg of camber. Doesn't sound like much, but trust me it is a great change.
If the pin is in place, it just pulls out with pliers. Once that is out then the person doing the alignment should be able to set the camber to -0.6 or a little less.
As for the rest of the alignment, use the MINI settings for front and rear toe and rear camber (yes, the rear camber is adjustable).
This will be good for the track as well as the road.
Note, when you put in camber plates, you will want to reset the rear camber to be slightly greater that the front camber setting.
Open the hood and look at the top of the strut towers. You should see the three nuts that hold the top of the strut in place; there will be 2 outboard nuts and 1 inboard nut. Look for a white plastic pin sticking up next to one or the other of the 2 outboard nuts. There should be a pin sticking up out of both shock towers. If that pin is there in either or both towers, then you have the stock alignment.
If the pin is missing from both towers then you need to remove one of the nuts to see if someone has already made the camber change. Once the nut has been removed you will see that the stud is in a slot in the shock tower. If the stud is to the outboard end of the slot then you have the stock alignment. If this is the case then you have just earned yourself an additional -0.3 deg of camber. Doesn't sound like much, but trust me it is a great change.
If the pin is in place, it just pulls out with pliers. Once that is out then the person doing the alignment should be able to set the camber to -0.6 or a little less.
As for the rest of the alignment, use the MINI settings for front and rear toe and rear camber (yes, the rear camber is adjustable).
This will be good for the track as well as the road.
Note, when you put in camber plates, you will want to reset the rear camber to be slightly greater that the front camber setting.
Thanks eddie! I just checked and I still got the plastic pins in place. Gonna go get the alignment done this week!
I'm pretty much set on the bushings and fixed camber plates. Was thinking about the intake and race chip but there are mixed opinions about intake changes, one of which told me that it may lead to a power loss.
I think I'll stick to the title of this thread and keep all things Handling
Thanks eddie! I just checked and I still got the plastic pins in place. Gonna go get the alignment done this week!
I'm pretty much set on the bushings and fixed camber plates. Was thinking about the intake and race chip but there are mixed opinions about intake changes, one of which told me that it may lead to a power loss.
I think I'll stick to the title of this thread and keep all things Handling
Well, you get a taste of what a little extra camber will do for you...
For a base MINI I would shy away from "chips". You may gain 5-10 Hp but it could be costly if it does damage. Air intakes aren't going to do much for you either as the MINI one is already a "cold air intake" and you are not moving that much air there there would be much of a restriction. It's not like the turbo engines. You might feel a few Hp gain from a less restrictive exhaust, but that can come with boominess.
The best bucks that you can spend is on some light weight 15" wheels and tires. Reduced rotational weight is free Hp on acceleration, will make the car handle better (less unsprung weight) and ride better (less unsprung weight, again). 10 lbs a wheel is about equivalent of 6 hp on acceleration.
Well, you get a taste of what a little extra camber will do for you...
For a base MINI I would shy away from "chips". You may gain 5-10 Hp but it could be costly if it does damage. Air intakes aren't going to do much for you either as the MINI one is already a "cold air intake" and you are not moving that much air there there would be much of a restriction. It's not like the turbo engines. You might feel a few Hp gain from a less restrictive exhaust, but that can come with boominess.
The best bucks that you can spend is on some light weight 15" wheels and tires. Reduced rotational weight is free Hp on acceleration, will make the car handle better (less unsprung weight) and ride better (less unsprung weight, again). 10 lbs a wheel is about equivalent of 6 hp on acceleration.
Save up and you will have that Handling Monster
Um...what do you mean by a base MINI I? Like a R53 Cooper? Mine is a R56 2012 Mini Cooper S N18 Automatic with all JCW Mods.
But that aside, thanks for the intake explanation. I've read similar things to what you said about going through that route.
And 15" wheels . I already feel low with 17" wheels with 215/45/17 tyres and Eibach Springs. I don't want to get any lower haha, would you compensate with a bigger tyre? If so, what dimensions?
and....found this thread on the IE Fixed Camber plates:
The second to last post with the picture of the tyre after 15,000 miles using the camber plates worries me...like IQRaceworks, I also put a lot of highway miles going to and from work.
Here's what he said:
"I run the IE fixed camber plates on my daily driver JCW Mini. I run close to the OEM alignment settings....maybe closer to zero to vs. 1/8" toe like the OEM settings say.
I can tell you one thing for sure....if you put lots of highway miles on your mini, the added camber from the fixed camber plates WILL wear the inside of your tires faster than the oem strut mounts. I'm on my 3rd set of tires since my IE camber plates........and I rotate my tires ever 5000 miles....and the best I can get from a set of tires is around 15,000-17,000 before the insides are worn completely down to no tread. The added camber does nothing for you on the highway except eat your tires.
If I had to do it again, I would just install a new set of OEM strut mounts. The IE fixed camber plates might be great for some added handling benefits on the track, but for a daily drive all they do is wear out your tires faster."
My apologies. not sure why I assumed that you had a base Cooper and not the S.
My comment about the air intake holds, though. Not much to improve there. Money is better spent on a better intercooler.
As for wheels and tires, the 15" won't fit your brakes. 16" wheels don't get you much of a weight saving over the 17". But a light weight 17" wheel (~14lbs) will gain you a lot over the stock wheels. Depending on the tire you get, you can save some weight there too.
As for alignment - that is an interesting thread, if you want to race or are a pro at autocross.
If all of that wear was due to the camber plates, then you would already be seeing that kind of wear on the rear tires. The stock setting for camber in the rear is -1.5 deg, the same as what the fixed camber plate will give you in the front. You will see no more wear on the fronts with the camber plates than you do in the rear. And this has been my experience. Actually, with my snow tires (which are are wearing quicker than I hoped), I see more wear on the rears.
If I understand that thread right, there were 2 changes made; camber plates and reduced toe-in. The problem with making multiple changes and you come up with something you don't like, you don't know what caused what you didn't like. In this case I would suspect that it was the reduced toe. This increases the scrub of the inside of the inside tire in a turn and if you are driving aggressively this is the tire that is also going to slip coming out of a turn when you get on the gas. The added wear is going to look like camber wear.
Do not go to zero toe in the rear. This will make your car squirrelly.
As I suggested, stock settings for everything except the front camber. I have 50+k miles on my current MINI and 30+k on my previous MINI and both ran the IE fixed camber plates. With your MINI you can set the front camber to -1.2 to -1.5 with these plates. You have the option to run the lesser amount if you wish.
There are a number of other threads on NAM that discuss camber settings. Most state that at -1.5 deg and less people are experiencing normal tire wear.
Think about it
For now, pull the pin, reset the camber and enjoy.
And if that feels good enough for you, stay with it and don't do the plates. Options, options, options.
Eddit07S is right on. Do a search for "free camber mod" and you'll find all the details on pulling the pin to max out your front camber (though Eddie gave a pretty complete explanation already,) and then add the camber plates when you're ready.
Regarding tire wear from camber - Last weekend I replaced my Michelin Pilot Super Sports, they were down to the wear bars after 24K miles and some track days. My camber is set to -2 degrees both front and rear with minimal but non-zero toe, I rotated them every 5K or so miles. Wear was completely even across all the tires. Go for it and don't worry, just rotate the tires every 5K.
My apologies. not sure why I assumed that you had a base Cooper and not the S.
My comment about the air intake holds, though. Not much to improve there. Money is better spent on a better intercooler.
As for wheels and tires, the 15" won't fit your brakes. 16" wheels don't get you much of a weight saving over the 17". But a light weight 17" wheel (~14lbs) will gain you a lot over the stock wheels. Depending on the tire you get, you can save some weight there too.
As for alignment - that is an interesting thread, if you want to race or are a pro at autocross.
If all of that wear was due to the camber plates, then you would already be seeing that kind of wear on the rear tires. The stock setting for camber in the rear is -1.5 deg, the same as what the fixed camber plate will give you in the front. You will see no more wear on the fronts with the camber plates than you do in the rear. And this has been my experience. Actually, with my snow tires (which are are wearing quicker than I hoped), I see more wear on the rears.
If I understand that thread right, there were 2 changes made; camber plates and reduced toe-in. The problem with making multiple changes and you come up with something you don't like, you don't know what caused what you didn't like. In this case I would suspect that it was the reduced toe. This increases the scrub of the inside of the inside tire in a turn and if you are driving aggressively this is the tire that is also going to slip coming out of a turn when you get on the gas. The added wear is going to look like camber wear.
Do not go to zero toe in the rear. This will make your car squirrelly.
As I suggested, stock settings for everything except the front camber. I have 50+k miles on my current MINI and 30+k on my previous MINI and both ran the IE fixed camber plates. With your MINI you can set the front camber to -1.2 to -1.5 with these plates. You have the option to run the lesser amount if you wish.
There are a number of other threads on NAM that discuss camber settings. Most state that at -1.5 deg and less people are experiencing normal tire wear.
Think about it
For now, pull the pin, reset the camber and enjoy.
And if that feels good enough for you, stay with it and don't do the plates. Options, options, options.
Thanks Eddie for being flexible and not being pushy with your recommendations
So now that we cleared up the model of my car , I'll definitly be on the look out for some lightweight 17" wheels. Probably gonna be some OZ.
I'll get the alignment done this week and pull the plastic pin to reach that -0.6 up front. By the way, I spoke with another mini owner who is turning his 2013 GP into a race car haha and he mentioned these bushings:
ALTA PSRS. At a glance from the threads here in NAM, it seems a lot of people like it. 100 bucks more expensive than the Powerflex Purple bushings I was thinking about getting but it also adds caster to the mix. If I go with these ALTA bushings, would I get the best out of both worlds without the need of going with camber plates up front?
From what I understood, the bushings allow camber change while turning and going back to the original setting while on a straight line (Example: Straight line camber at -0.6. While turning camber at -1.5) I know you need to align the car once again after the install but I'd like to hear your take on this mod if you don´t mind ....I also read that it may cause the steering to be harder, but I don't mind that at all
The Alta PSRS bushings compliment the camber plates. That is, as you turn the steering wheel the static camber becomes less and the caster angle increases. So, ideally, the angle of the wheel with respect to the ground will be somewhat unchanged as you turn the wheel more for a tighter turn. This statement is very simplistic but should give you the idea of what is happening.
Caster is the part of the suspension that provides straightening of the front wheels and resists turning, while at the same time provide the necessary wheel angle for handling. Like anything, it is a compromise between steering force and handling needs. On a street car the handling needs are low so there isn't a need for a lot of camber.
As for which to do - the camber plates affect the turn in and affect the more shallow steering angles. Whereas the caster change will have more of an effect on sharp turns. I would do the camber plates first for the street. The PSRS are not as easy to do compared to the plates, but if you are putting in poly anyway they are a defiant consideration.
I know a person who added them to his autocross car (w/major camber enhancements) and really liked them. And said the steering force didn't increase much.
The Alta PSRS bushings compliment the camber plates. That is, as you turn the steering wheel the static camber becomes less and the caster angle increases. So, ideally, the angle of the wheel with respect to the ground will be somewhat unchanged as you turn the wheel more for a tighter turn. This statement is very simplistic but should give you the idea of what is happening.
Caster is the part of the suspension that provides straightening of the front wheels and resists turning, while at the same time provide the necessary wheel angle for handling. Like anything, it is a compromise between steering force and handling needs. On a street car the handling needs are low so there isn't a need for a lot of camber.
As for which to do - the camber plates affect the turn in and affect the more shallow steering angles. Whereas the caster change will have more of an effect on sharp turns. I would do the camber plates first for the street. The PSRS are not as easy to do compared to the plates, but if you are putting in poly anyway they are a defiant consideration.
I know a person who added them to his autocross car (w/major camber enhancements) and really liked them. And said the steering force didn't increase much.
Thanks for clearing that up Eddie! Gonna follow your recommendations and take it one step at a time. Gonna get that alignment done this Saturday and get that -0.6 up front and use the MINI settings for front and rear toe and rear camber.
Drive the car for a bit I make the mistake of going for something else all the time it takes a bit to get the hang of a new set up. if you can ask to watch the alignment being done its a great skill to add if you ever decide to do them yourself lines lasers and levels will work but you need a good flat spot. ps power is great but its easy to max out what you need. you see all these 700hp-1000hp+ but how do you get to use it. I almost think of going no computer and 40 IDF webbers just for throttle feel and buildability, but would loose lots of power. how the whole comes together is more impotant than just hp.
So quick update. I went to get the alignment done on Saturday. My mini was scanned and it was found that my rear control arms were unbalanced and that my front left wheel was inward. The mecanic told me that fixing the toe would not solve anything because of the unbalances of the car. I ask how it got so bad and he said that it was "normal" when talking about the road conditions of where I live (potholes, bumps, etc). I'm waiting to see if they're available this Saturday because its going to be a 4 hour job. I also asked if they could remove the plastic pin from the front and they looked at me as if I was crazy. I'll still insist next time...and if they don't want to be liable. I'll pluck it myself...
So anyways. Here's the sheet I received with the details of my car. (It's in spanish but I hope ya'll can understand the degrees and ranges)
The two charts on top are the two front wheels and the two below the two back wheels. You can see the camber, toe, even caster difference due to unbalanced components.
Hi they should understand why you want to add camber, does the shop ever do race cars or hot rods etc. I forgot did you do adjustable rear arms? Oh ps the rear toe changes as you lower the car and adjust camber its a bit of trick geometey and the trailing arm, You should even get new cars aligned
Hi they should understand why you want to add camber, does the shop ever do race cars or hot rods etc. I forgot did you do adjustable rear arms? Oh ps the rear toe changes as you lower the car and adjust camber its a bit of trick geometey and the trailing arm, You should even get new cars aligned
Hi Euler,
Yes, the shop does prep cars for track use. No, I didn't get adjustable rear arm. All I'm trying to aim for is -0.6 in the front and -1.5 in the back for street use.
Also with this info and having the cambers all over the place, I'm worried about uneven tire wear. I'm gonna visit another shop this week or the following week to get the set up done. I just couldn't believe how unbalanced the car was ...
I think you went over the numbers but street I go 2 front and 3+ back and rotate front to back on the same side, your numbers are fine just dont be surprised by the alignment numbers you got, any time you do work you reset those things and as new parts wear in you need to get it reset. Thats why I decided to learn to do it myself. Can they corner balance the car? Still 4 hours seems like a lot just cautious maybe, I know I had to search for a shop to race align my car last time. Minis seem to run in all kinds of various set ups and miss matches, but its a neat feeling when its just so, for racing vw front drives even toe-out for faster turn ins but I have only gone 0 toe I like a little toe so set it back. Ive talked with people driving the same team car and they have preferences.
I would recommend a skid school day if you can, all this talk of the hardware is ok but oddly cornering is more controlled skidding than anything and no one ever really gets drivers out to slide around. They wet the track so you dont ruin your tires
Last edited by Euler-Spiral; 08-09-2016 at 02:57 PM.
I think you went over the numbers but street I go 2 front and 3+ back and rotate front to back on the same side, your numbers are fine just dont be surprised by the alignment numbers you got, any time you do work you reset those things and as new parts wear in you need to get it reset. Thats why I decided to learn to do it myself. Can they corner balance the car? Still 4 hours seems like a lot just cautious maybe, I know I had to search for a shop to race align my car last time. Minis seem to run in all kinds of various set ups and miss matches, but its a neat feeling when its just so, for racing vw front drives even toe-out for faster turn ins but I have only gone 0 toe I like a little toe so set it back. Ive talked with people driving the same team car and they have preferences.
I would recommend a skid school day if you can, all this talk of the hardware is ok but oddly cornering is more controlled skidding than anything and no one ever really gets drivers out to slide around. They wet the track so you dont ruin your tires
I would caution against such a radical camber setup for the street. The op has a stock setup at this point; no camber plates or adjustable links. The best he can do is what he he is looking.
More of a concern is the difference between the left and right side. The front camber should not be greater than -0.3 deg without pulling the pin. Are you sure the car has not been in an accident? The other possibility is that the when the springs were put in the shocks and springs were not assembled correctly. Sometimes the top spring purch gets hung up on the flange on the shock.
Things need to be checked before adding more parts to it.
You're rear camber numbers are even, but high. And they are in the range of the available adjustment. It seems that your alignment shop may not know MINIs that well. I don't think there is anything wrong there.
I can fill in more details if you need. Just let me know what.
I would caution against such a radical camber setup for the street. The op has a stock setup at this point; no camber plates or adjustable links. The best he can do is what he he is looking.
More of a concern is the difference between the left and right side. The front camber should not be greater than -0.3 deg without pulling the pin. Are you sure the car has not been in an accident? The other possibility is that the when the springs were put in the shocks and springs were not assembled correctly. Sometimes the top spring purch gets hung up on the flange on the shock.
Things need to be checked before adding more parts to it.
You're rear camber numbers are even, but high. And they are in the range of the available adjustment. It seems that your alignment shop may not know MINIs that well. I don't think there is anything wrong there.
I can fill in more details if you need. Just let me know what.
Thanks Eddie. I'm very sure the car hasn't been in an accident and I am confident the springs were installed correctly.
I will, however, go to another shop this weekend to get a second opinion and a second scan to see if it shows any differences. This new shop was recommended by another mini owner who had his track setup done there.
Hopefully they aren't afraid of taking out the plastic pin either. Is it ok to take it out now before the alignment? If so, I'll just take it out at home tonight...
I've heard good things about auto trans equipped MINI's using this. Makes changes in the TCU and ECU, It'll increase shifts 24% and bypass throttle and torque limitations-http://minimayhem.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=254&product_id=1872
Yes camber can bounce you around on ruts and you need a bit of caution in the rain but my friends add way more. Again the planed numbers are fine just a bit conservative, I use numbers closer to those during the winter (learned that the hard way). If you have some time a plumb bob and some line I measure for a center line marking with a good paint pen, you need a ruler to tape the plumb line to so it can be held up to fixed points under the car, your fingers are too fat. It takes a few tries to kind of find the center I dont expect this line to be perfect but within 1/16 is what I shoot for. Now if you want to see if things have moved you have a reference point, a level and a flat spot and you can check camber as well just convert to deg. I use a note book measure threeeeeeee times and take an average. Now when you get your alignment do it again and see how you did. Its just a way to start to see how the geometry and adjustments work. Remember to bounce the car and roll it forward and back a bit to see how the whole balances out.
Thanks Eddie. I'm very sure the car hasn't been in an accident and I am confident the springs were installed correctly.
I will, however, go to another shop this weekend to get a second opinion and a second scan to see if it shows any differences. This new shop was recommended by another mini owner who had his track setup done there.
Hopefully they aren't afraid of taking out the plastic pin either. Is it ok to take it out now before the alignment? If so, I'll just take it out at home tonight...
You are smart to get the alignment rechecked. If it comes back the same, then I would still suspect the assembly of the one shock/spring.
As an alternative I can tell you from experience that in less than 50k miles they can have enough internal wear to add -0.5 of camber, but it is artificial because it is from slop. There could be damage that that created slop in that one shock and causing it to giving the high reading. Not sure how to check for that except by replacing the shock.
I suppose a loose balljoint could also cause it. But at this point I am really just guessing. Hopefully this other shop is good and can help if it is really out.
As for pulling the pin....Just do it!
It is only a locating pin for assembly. Once the nuts are tight it does nothing.
You are smart to get the alignment rechecked. If it comes back the same, then I would still suspect the assembly of the one shock/spring.
As an alternative I can tell you from experience that in less than 50k miles they can have enough internal wear to add -0.5 of camber, but it is artificial because it is from slop. There could be damage that that created slop in that one shock and causing it to giving the high reading. Not sure how to check for that except by replacing the shock.
I suppose a loose balljoint could also cause it. But at this point I am really just guessing. Hopefully this other shop is good and can help if it is really out.
As for pulling the pin....Just do it!
It is only a locating pin for assembly. Once the nuts are tight it does nothing.
Got the alignment done and the guy doing it knew exactly what I was looking for and added some of his own knowledge into the mix. My current setup it -1.0 in the front. He managed to get this due to the lowering springs already generating a heavier negative camber. Did we miss this part of the equation (about the springs)?
So anyways, glad I got a little more in the front without the camber plates. He also told me he got rid of the plastic pins but when I lifted the hood at home they were still there...just a little bit more squished. I'll be returning to this shop after the track day because I will rotate the wheels there as well. So I'll ask him then...(tried pulling them with the tools at home, but it would slip)
On the rear, he tried to go for the -1.5 but told me that due to the car being lower already, he could only get to -2.0. Apparently my lower control arms don't allow for more adjustments inwards...another interesting find. I believe somebody mentioned lower control arms in this thread as well. But not focusing about that for now because that would be really deep into Track World .
As for toe adjustments, he went with the stock settings. He also adjusted the camber per wheel a little bit different. He took into account the weight of the driver, so the left side has a bit less camber to make up for the camber that will be added due to the added weight.
I only drove the car from the shop to my house. The first impression was that it corrected this slight tendency to steer right (my left wheel being pushed inwards before the alignment). As far as a Handling Monster, still need to do a bit more testing. I've got from here until Friday to see if I find anything unusual and I'll check in back at the shop. If not, track day is coming up on Saturday and I cannot wait to test this pocket rocket out.
I'm also afraid I'll get hooked with the track . If so, this thread will only get a whole lot longer haha. Thanks again eddie!
07-27-2016, 07:02 PM
. 
. Maybe next year I'll be on the lookout for some lightweight wheels such as OZ, Enkei, SSR, Volk in the market. Where I am from, it is really a matter of luck and timing for a set of these to pop up. Buying them new its expensive as hell. 
. I already feel low with 17" wheels with 215/45/17 tyres and Eibach Springs. I don't want to get any lower haha, would you compensate with a bigger tyre? If so, what dimensions? 
