Springs impart less roll stiffness than do the sway bars. I was also told that if you go with stiffer sway bars, like I did, you want to go with softer springs. I didn't get a chance to talk about why in any kind of detail. But I imagine that it has to do with the roll stiffness associated with each.

You actually may have about the same setup that I have, but achieved it from a different direction. I have the big, stiff front and rear sway bars and softer sports suspension springs. You have the stiffer springs and softer stock sway bars. From your video, you track car seems to be pretty neutral. Yes?

 

post 170 is my ax car, on JCW springs and koni fsd shocks, big rear sway on softest setting it is hard on tires.

My track car is silver, on the kw v3 with the swift springs, it does not roll very much, and it is MUCH better on tire wear, stays pretty neutral, I have had it drift out on me when the tires get greasy but easy to control it was not a snap

I do not like how sway bars transfer torque to the other side of the car so much when going over corner curbing

 

I understand about the curbing thing. WGI just repaved and changed some of the curbing to keep the stock cars off them (and they will drive anywhere ) so those curbs are really hard on a street car; especially one with stiff sway bars.

I had FSDs on my previous MINI. They were great on the road but have to say that I didn't like them at all for autoX or the track. On the track and autoX, they just seemed to be confused; stiff when they should have been soft and soft when then should have been stiff. The car felt like the rear was held on by rubber bands going through the esses at LRP. I had the car swap ends on me several times in slaloms and I attributed that to the shocks (and not so good driving...). The B8s (Bilstiens) are much better with the control they give.

 

I'm switching to yellows when funds allow

 

That should make a serious improvement....

 

Linear springs do not impart any roll stiffness. Progressive springs add to roll stiffness. Lots of people advocate the use of linear springs for track focused cars in order to separately tune roll stiffness with sway bars. Its easier to make changes one at a time and test it than to make multiple changes.

http://www.hypercoils.com/mph/tech-t...nsion-springs/

 

I can tell you I get a LOT less body roll and the only thing I did was remove the KW v3 progressive springs and went to linear swift springs, doubling the spring rating while I was at it

I'm now able to play with camber and tire temps, prior to the spring change I was all up over the outer edge of the tires ruining them and tire temps were horrible, camber plates at max was not enough

 

Alright ive done a bit more reading and, will agree that you increased your roll rate. What was the rate on your progressive springs? Also how much did you increase your rebound damping by? You probably dont have nearly enough rebound damping now and too much compression.

 

I'm happy with rebound and damping now (finally) they both feel good but I have not started to monitor shock travel yet. V3 are double adjustable and I have both comp & rebound at 3 clicks off full stiff. They are stiff as hell when I start out and the shocks are cold, once they get some warmth in them they feel good

v3 fronts came with something like 300 lb/in progressive springs and I'm running 500 lb/in now

I dont have tire wear issues in the rear so I have not adjusted anything other than ride height back there, I had to raise it a bit on the track car

 

Your suspension fluid sounds like its pretty low quality if you notice a big damping change between cold and warm. Is that the higher rate on your V3 or the lower rate? you should have two rates.

 

I would assume kw uses high quality fluid

I use the highest I can get on my motorcycles and I can feel cold vs warm temp difference easily

 

Sounds gross if you can notice the damping change. The temperature change from shock operation alone shouldnt be a lot. But the brakes do have a significant effect on damper temperature

 

shocks get pretty hot, put your hand on one after a couple track sessions, that's why higher end setups use remote oil piggyback tanks, I run extra shock cooling on my motorcycle

 

Oh i am well aware of damper temperatures. However comparing a car damper to a motorcycle damper is completely different. Car dampers have much more oil volume to accomplish similar amounts of energy dissipation as a motorcycle shock. Reservoirs are used to increase oil capacity, increase damper stroke for a given length, and provide a means of adding adjustment *****.

Your brakes are heating up the shocks on your car far more than the energy the shock is dissipating. With a properly designed shock on a car, it is pretty much impossible to overheat the shock. Most shocks are perfectly capable to operate over 200deg F

 

I feel the diff when oil is 40 degrees to about 30 min of driving but I have not measured what temp that is

 

Id find out if they use a different oil in their clubsport model when its time for a rebuild. A lot of brands use a completely different oil between the street setups and the race shocks (kw v3 still counts as street shock). The race oil is 2-3x the price of standard shock oil. JM92 is very popular in off road racing as it is highly stable at up to 400 deg F.

 

I doubt I will ever put enough miles on these to need a rebuild, I'm switching to a E36/e46 or mustang track car in 2 years, whatever works out to be cheaper to gut/cage/run in HPDE4/open passing group. I thought about going big head/cam/header/tune but the cost per hp is terrible and heat soak, not wanting to run meth on the track all day it's a tough sell compared to just switching to a RWD once I learn the local tracks better.

I know bmw's having owned 20 of them but the mustangs are competitive now

 

Best camber can be different depending on the sidewall and pressure run, and how you want the car to handle, temps can get important, it really takes trying out different settings and they tend to be tied to each other. Mega dont you run higher rear pressure? that should put pressure on the rears a bit quicker and add slip angle but may loose a bit of traction try going super low on the rears to start, it allows slip angle and a bit more traction but it will delay the reaction a bit so its not a straight up method add air in small steps, on the fronts I try highest first and work down. At a high speed track its more important to be conservative on all settings you need more testing and experience but for x try it all. Just as an example I switched wheels/tires from one Mini to another with different camber, I had to adjust the air to get the car to sit right its important especially on lower aspect ratio like 45's, Watch for wear a temp gauge can help.

 

I do not understand slip angle at all, for both ax and track I run the rear 2psi higher, I was not able to do this last ax, I had to lower to same as the front or the rear just slid all over, they never did get warm after 6 runs, it was 60 and windy all day

 

Slip angle is the twist a tire gets and is a big factor in what direction the car is going relative to the tire, there are diagrams about on line, so if you can add or reduce slip angle you can steer the front and back a bit. Dont forget that the car is shifting weight about in time so a soft tire will add slip a bit later in the turn a stiffer tire will add it faster how hard and fast the suspension is set counts in time as well and of coarse the sidewall has to resist so going to soft could roll it, so thats why tire construction is so important.

I just had a set of grippy tires that were at the indicators and then it got a bit colder started sliding a bit more took out the last of the tread in one trip out. It might be fun to try some snows on a cold x day

 

Great discussion here with some very useful information. For those newer to autocross performance setups, here's a handy guide.

http://new.minimania.com/Better_Hand...k_or_Autocross

We've also developed a dedicated R56 Parts & Accessories page to help out as well:

http://new.minimania.com/MINI_Cooper...nd_Accessories

Hope this helps!

Drive Hard. Drive Safe. Keep Grinning.

 

While i appreciate Mini Mania's input.

Is anyone else getting tired of the vendor spam on almost every thread? I get that they are trying to run a business but half the threads nowadays just become ECS/mania/way linking to their pages, with many threads having all three.

 

We appreciate your comments, Cougar. We enthusiasts love sharing the knowledge and fun of these cars, Classic and New, from decades of driving, modifying and racing. No intention on our end of spamming - just sharing the excitement and fun, and hoping to save hours of frustration, and dollars on getting it wrong before getting it right. Apologies if that didn't come across! We'll do better on our end.

 

Cougar - there is a lot of advertisements needed to keep a web page like this going. I have posted enough to see how various advertisers interact with the general posters and I can't say I have seen anything I would call "spam". In fact I have used information that they have pointed to. They present an enthusiasm for these cars in the face of a lot of threads that are just trashing them. Ya, it may be in part for profit but I see it as no different than walking in and BS-ing with my mechanic. I know that he is willing to put up with me because he knows that that is the best way to get my business in the future. I also know that a few vendors have been banned from this blog. I guess they didn't follow the rules. So an other point, the monitors of this blog have made it on of the best out there. No, I don't mind what they do.

 

Mini Mania did come up with a nice fully adjustable rear bar (on my wish list)- got to like the toys-just ask for stuff they surely want to get on your good side