I'm following you. I will try that tonight or tomorrow. Thanks!

 

Dont stress its about learning your car. I had a Fiat build,,,,, couldnt get it started for weeks, had to get an MSD ignition,, super great after that. The compression was high so the old coil pionts couldnt light the charge... Starters can be trouble and that is likely 90% the problem here. Just sounded funny not knowing what banging you were talking about, this sounds quite classic bad starter.

 

Thanks man. I am trying to relax. I have learned so much from this and I am quite proud of my work. Once it is running it should be a great car! Just getting to that point is a pain lol. I truly appreciate the assistance.

 

Ah its not the car its the mechanic that gets great----sort of, ever wonder how old family station wagons get turned into works of art? the trick is to decide if you like the work and if so keep at it,,, learning even one car is a process. Go look at Speed Hunters for a bit and watch the RWB build. ITs always just a beginning

 

I was actually hoping to do this again if I could find a deal on one with a bad engine but this starter has turned into the biggest issue. Pulling the engine, rebuilding it, putting it back in was not that bad compared to this thing lol. I still could have a vacuum leak or something but even that should not be too horrible to track down. I just hate having to pull the intake off to get to the starter. Honestly I dont know why I do. It isnt even that hard lol. I just do not like it. I am ready to drive!

 

So I just got home from work. Decided to try one more time before digging in since the battery had time to charge done. Well it fired up for a moment and cranks. Interior lights are dimming when I start so I'm going to take the battery to be tested. That makes me feel better. No internal now and I checked the piston height from before and it's turning for sure.

Update: Battery tested fine. So I put it back in and same thing. It turns over a few times then click. I will double check the grounds but I can't see that being an issue. I feel comfortable this isnt really a mechanical engine issue since its turning fine. I can still try and manually crank it tonight if you honestly feel that could be an issue still. I mean I know for a fact it does rotate now and I am not noticing any binding.

 

Ok.. Added a second ground wire from battery to the starter bolt. That didn't help. Battery is good. Engine turns. With the engine changes I've done...Supertech piston and rods, WMW performance cams and ported head. I believe the compression is 10.5:1 vs 9.5:1. With these changes could the stock starter just be too weak to crank it? It's just not cranking at a solid speed. It's very weak. I was wondering if they make a racing starter that might put out more to crank it.?.? Tomorrow I'll have more time to manually crank the engine. Just little time today but I know it is turning with the starter just slow and no noise.

 

Hi normally a starter gear returns on its own. If it was sticking its likely not good. Ive had starters have the wingdings get messed up after being stuck at idle as well. Next is checking the electrical connections with a good multimeter at least for proper voltage if you dont have an amp setting high enough. Ive found these starters to be strong enough. I try not to crank an engine for more than 15 seconds or so at a time and if it takes a few tries I take a break to allow the wires to cool.

As to how a fresh N14 at 10.5-1 engine should feel turning over by hand with a standard breaker bar,,,, in neutral, as the piston goes up on the closed cylinder it should feel like a spring is pushing back about 10lb+ or so once it passes top dead center it springs almost wrenching the bar out of your hands.

 

I can check that this weekend. I know with the plugs out it did turn a lot easier but in it's not moving a lot. I'll check as you mentioned tomorrow. I think I need to slow down a little. Thank you for your info.

 

You could check the compression with a gauge, check the manual but ideal rule of thumb is atmosphere at sea level 14.7 x ratio 10.5 for ratios to 1, so you should be less than 154psi, is it 135 in the specs.

 

Right now I'm ready to set it on fire lol...

 

Ok so I tried to turn the engine manually and it's very tight and hard to move... With the plugs out.

 

I know the piston were very easy to turn before the timing. I just figured as I went along adding the head etc the stiffness was normal. The engine seemed to tighten after installing the head and timing. I'm not sure if the transmission could have anything to do with this. Should I start by pulling the head and checking the timing? Could it be too tight? Kinda out of my experience level right and I'm getting nervous. Should I add any lube to piston just to make sure I'm not going to hurt them?

 

Here's a long shot --- double check your transmission shifting linkage --- the ones on top of the housing. If you're not in neutral when you think you are, the engine will be really hard to turn, depending on which gears are engaged. Maybe cycle thru all the gears to see if it feels normal.

You might also pull the valve cover and watch the cams / valves cycle as you manually crank it. I'm not familiar with WMW cam offerings, any chance there's too much cam lift for the springs? Look for binding valve springs, etc.

 

I've shifted thru the gears and felt normal earlier today. I'll give wmw a call and ask. I know the piston moved very smooth during the build. Timing lined up good. I guess I'll pull the cover tomorrow. That's easy enough to do. I'm not sure exactly what to expect from the cams. I had the had rebuilt also.

 

OK check the timing valve cover off and spring as suggested, then try with the clutch held in disengaged, confirm that the wheels wont spin by raising the car (checking for a hung clutch or trans issue). remove the starter to confirm its not the problem, actually get the starter first (if its gears are not retracting it could be the fault). Dont pull the head yet if timing checks etc. If you still find resistance remove the belt then the other accessories. before removing the head get someone who builds engines over to go over things. I would stop by if not for the long drive and being a bit busy. these things usually work out. Ive watched blown engines put back together to finish rally races so you should be better off than that. PS may be out and about for a few days,

 

Thanks again. I'll get there. Just not on my time schedule LOL. I'll relax AND test the items you mentioned. Unfortunately all my mechanic friends are busy but I'll get there. I don't think anything is damaged at least.

 

Just to recap. I will test the following and see where I get. I know the lower end worked fine prior to head install so I feel that part is solid. I could turn the cams with the wrench enough to get the timing tool on so I really don't think they are an issue but might be after the timing chain was installed. I mean I got all that together fine. Once the timing tensioner was installed the chain was tight. I remember installing the clutch and was unsure if it should be as tight to the flywheel as it was but my buddy said yes. First time doing a clutch. Actually the 1st time doing most of this crap but I paid attention and asked when I was unsure or curious. So based on my personal experience with this build I would say the areas I noticed anything that seemed odd to me were the timing and the clutch. However the alignment of the timing components I was dead on. I know the flywheel and cams lined up correctly and have little question as to this being an issue. Could the timing chain be too tight or something there? Then is the clutch possibly an issue? Both of these are not really what I want to dig into and check but I will if I need to. Just kinda a bummer thinking about that. Since it did fire up originally and seemed to be easier with the original starter I will look into this 1st and go thru the checklist below. If you feel my order is fine or off let me know please.

1. Remove starter. I will actually replace it since they have a replacement for me. --> Try and manually crank the engine.
2. Remove the drive belt. --> Try and manually crank the engine.
3. Pull the valve cover and look into the timing chain etc. --> Try and manually crank the engine.
4. If the above reveals nothing then I guess I need to pull the transmission off and double check the clutch/transmission connection....
5. If this reveals nothing I guess set it on fire :-)

Here are some pics of the timing and cams during the rebuild. I honestly feel i did it right but I could be wrong. I know when I put the transmission on I lined it up with the engine on the ground, tranny on the hoist and slid them together then used the bolts in a cross pattern to slowly pull the two together and we did not notice any excessive force that would cause concern. I just did a turn or two per bolt at a time. Again if I had to guess its 1. the starter, 2. clutch/transmission area or 3. something with the head/timing but I really went thru this. I only know that once the tensioner timing tool was on it got good and tight. I am just trying to share my personal experience with this post as none of you actually were here when I did this. I figure more detail the better. Again I want to thank everyone here for the assistance. I tend to over-communicate but thats just me...

 

Dont forget to raise the car and check how the clutch is engaging disengaging before any removing, actually think through any part before it comes off, the clues are sometime easier to find that way,

Its impossible to not get frustrated sometimes so plan on taking a break, powering through stuff at this point may not help. look around for a car club or visit a race track, I visit my machine shop and see what cool things are going together.

 

Well the car is still on stands. I haven't lowered it yet as this hasn't fired up yet completely. I bleed the clutch slave and it seems to be fine but who knows lol. I will dig around some today. I really cant look back at anything I did wrong or missed as I am very detailed in my work. I will investigate forever if I am unsure. I'm praying its just the starter. My buddy looked last night at it and felt there was a little metal around where the starter meets the flywheel yet the flywheel looked good. Does seem odd that the original starter I burnt was able to fire it up yet the new one struggles.... I will know in a few hrs!

 

Since I retired from the world of manufacturing quality assurance / control, I gotta ask --- did you use plenty of engine assembly lubricant on bearing and other friction surfaces? With all your new parts, they're gonna be pretty dry, unless you did some sort of "priming" to the oil supply lines.

If you get as far as pulling the VC off, ensure there's oil everywhere. After running a few times for several seconds, oil should be circulating.

Then there's the cam bearing caps --- it's not easy, but possible to get them mounted backwards or in the wrong location. This would cause binding and make it hard for cams to rotate. Your pics don't show the numbers clearly, but they should be sequential from 0 to 4 on one side, 5 to 9 on the other. #0 and 5 can only be mounted in one orientation and location, the rest need to be "readable" (not upside down) from the same direction. Watch #6 & 9 to ensure they aren't switched --- the number "pattern" should be the same as the other eight caps.

Yes, this is pretty basic stuff and I don't mean to offend you, but I've found that workmanship can be a significant cause of problems. When I did a similar rebuild a couple years ago, I had a couple "do-overs" and harness connection mistakes. Embarrassing, but part of the learning experience.

Patience, patience ----

 

Oh I don't get offended for advice. I had a shop assemble the lower and it moved very smooth and easy before I assemble the timing. The head was done by them as well. I only did the head mounting, timing and all items that mount to the engine also. I also added some extra assembly lube to the cams and on the timing components as a precaution. Honestly I do not feel its internal to the engine block unless the timing is too tight somehow. My best guess is the starter, clutch or transmission connection. I truly welcome all advice and questions. I'm no expert but my ocd makes me pay attention to detail.

 

Pulled the starter and no luck turning the crank manually. Same after engaging the clutch. Pulled the valve cover and all looks fine and oil in the head and oil filter. So that's good news. I assume that I'm correct that the timing chain should be tight like it is? At this point the only things connected are the hpfp and vacuum pump to the cams. I don't see that being an issue. Could be the oil pump is bound up but I don't know the odds of that. How can I verify the clutch is working besides pulling the transmission out because that looks like my next step?

 

Hi is it turning at all. even with the plugs out a new engine will have a little resistance of pistons and cam springs you should mostly feel the cams (just get another opinion before going further). I havent had an oil pump go like that mostly just dont pressure up. I would remove the fuel and vacuum pumps. The trans should turn mostly free in neutral even engaged, If something is binding the main shaft thats the question. One last thing to be sure of,,,, the vanos is oil pressure run off the variable pump at a decent pressure there is a release valve on the pump (two stages if you noticed) so its just a check but not hard, you can remove the vanos solenoid to check. after that its got to be trans or in the engine unless there is anything left I cant think of it

 

The timing checks out? cam locks still fit?