Hey all!
So I wanted to reach out to the forums in order to get some input on track potential for my 2011 Cooper S. As of late I've been toying with the idea of moving back into a BMW (most likely e39 m5), but I am trying to convince myself that I can get the same enjoyment out of the r56. As of now, I'm running basic modifications with a stock drivetrain and its quite fun, just not knock your socks off. So my curiosity leads me to the following decision... Do I move to a BMW for a track/street build, or fully commit to the r56 and go stage 2 (or even 3)?

I've seen the 300+hp n18's that come out of Lohen, but I have never heard of how they handle on the track or head to head against cars in the similar hp range. Hopefully someone with experience in the high hp r56 family can chime in.

My hopes would be to have a car that can out corner and keep up on the straights with track oriented e46 m3's. So please let me know what hp range would be suitable for such. Not looking to fully commit to forged internals just yet, but a bigger turbo and lower boost would be a big potential. Obvious interior stripping and bracing would be a necessity.
Thanks All!

 

I came from a 2002 e39 M5 and into my 2013 MCS. If you are looking to do track day stuff, the Mini is the far better car. The M5 will kill it on the straights but the Mini is an order of magnitude better in the corners. Remember an e39 M5 is a 4000 lb luxury car with lots of engine.

Can you go wrong with either car, no, they are both awesome vehicles. I miss the S62 engine in the M5 and the amazing luxury. I also love playing with the turbo lag and being able to chuck the Mini into a corner while having it pull me out.

If you are going to go with a track Mini, I highly recommend an LSD. I did the Quaife LSD and absolutely love it. It transformed my Mini, I use to have bad understeer if I even considered getting into the boost in a corner, now it goes were I point the front wheels.

 

Thanks for the input! Yeah the e39 is serious luxury, but then that comes with a cost. And going for an LSD would be a must have. I think I would want to keep it simple and reliable to start; stock internals, stiffer coilovers, beefier sway bars, bigger turbo, full exhaust dp back, lsd, and a half stripped interior. Should land me in the 230-50hp range, just not sure how that translates to track potential.

Do you think the n18 has the potential to keep up with the big hitters like the m family?

 

Buy a used miata for track, keep mini for day to day.

 

I run with a number of well prepared E36 M3s at Watkins Glen and get toasted. The E46 is even faster. I am turning about 120 where they are in the 130 - 140 range. A tuned R53 I ran with would do about 130. Even if I added a tune to my car to approach what the M cars can do in top end, brakes become the next limitation and some serious 13" front and 11.75" rear TCE prepped Wilwoods would be needed on my car; the 12.2" Wilwood are barely adequate now. Costs of running the car goes up too with having to go to larger wheels and tires. So you might get close in top end and have a car that can slow down, but in cornering the E36 will still have the edge because it starts with better basics (rear wheel drive, better balance, etc). So on a "HP track" like the Glen, if you want to hang or better the M cars, get an M car.

However, if you are on a short track with tight turns, like Lime Rock Park, the MINI can be made to pretty well rule the track even with no engine mods.

If you just want a car that you can drive to the track, run a day or 2 or 3, have low cost of operation, and you go home grinning from ear to ear, run the MINI and don't worry about the M cars.

As for preparing your car for the track:
- I assume you have front camber plates, go to about -2.5 deg camber.
- LSD is an absolute must.
- Add the Whiteline 25mm front and 20mm rear sway bars. Yes, the car will turn in plenty well with the big front bar. How do I know? See my signature.
- if you have the optional DTC, and you add a BBK, you will need to get your CPU reset for what MINI calls their "JCW sport brakes", otherwise the eLSD will cook your brakes. How do I know? Been there, done that.

One of the biggest limitation of the R56 in making it go faster is not being able to duct air to the front brakes and cool them. That is the biggest issue that I currently have.

Hope this helps and no matter what, have fun.

 

Thanks for all the info! Yeah I kind of assumed the r56 chassis had its limitations, its great to hear some track feedback though! I think the n18 would need some serious rebuilding in order to be competition for m cars. Im glad I'm putting this into perspective now!

I think its time to go back to the drawing board and reconsider the best options for this job.

 

The only form of racing I have done is a fair amount of autocross. My Mini absolutely blows the e39 M5 out of the water in the autocross. However I just took my Mini to an autocross down near Pittsburgh were the track was much faster than what we typically run where I live and I was getting crushed by e36 M3s, like 4 seconds on a 45 second course. Both M3s were lightly modded in the suspension department.

To put into perspective, my Mini is about as tuned as one can get with all factory parts. 2013 MCS with JCW tune, JCW suspension, JCW brakes, GP Aero, and GP interior with the rear seat delete and rear strut bar. I also have the Quaife LSD, the only non Mini part on the car.

 

Yeah it seems as though we lack that top end power thats needed on straights. Sounds like a fun set up though!

I had a 97 m3 and an 03 m3 before my MCS, both were super fun but they just never had that power potential for the money. You would have to dump a few grand to get very little out of the BMW's, however, it seems as though you would need to dump that same amount in a MCS just to get up to par with a stock m.

Starting to sound like the Mini may be not so suitable for the task

 

I agree, Buy a 1st generation Miata and upgrade it. More reliable, lots of upgrades available and more user friendly + it's rear wheel drive.

 

Thought about going that route, but as a die hard bmw fan, it would have to be an e30 or 2002

 

The MINI has power potential because of the turbo. I drove a friend's tuned JCW, ~250 WHP. He said that was about max'ed out on the stock engine and turbo. The JCW turbo has higher air flow than the S turbo so that would knock that back a bit. He was also running Meth injection. I also have no idea how reliable that would be on the track.

IMHO the milder Manic tune would be a better option. That would get you a little more HP than the JCW without having to do anything more than a larger intercooler. Reliability on the track should be good.

Downside of the N18 - oil temp. A Scangage will allow you to read oil temp. It normally runs 220 - 230 F on the street. It will be about 250 F on the track. If the aux water pump (supplies coolant to the turbo) fails, oil temps can get above 270 F.

I'm letting you know what I have run into with the N18. While I would like to hear that that you are out there running a MINI, I think you should know the pitfalls.

As for a Miata, I ran with a pretty highly modded one at WGI. I had him on top end, he had me in the turns. We were very close in times but I know I was a slight bit faster overall. At LRP that probably would have been different as HP doesn't play as big of a role.

 

Yeah I agree on the tune and intercooler. I had the original idea of swapping the mcs turbo over to a used JCW and doing a piggy back tune in hopes of making the same amount of boost while the turbo works less. Hopefully it would have helped spool better in the lower rpm range as I struggle with some hefty lag with the stock turbo as well as keep engine temps and condition at ease.

Before I jumped over to an r56 I was well aware of all the pitfalls. In fact, I specifically got the n18 because it sounded less "miserable" to own haha. I figured if anything happened internally, I would just go fully forged.

Its starting to sound like a case where the r56 would not make too competitive of a track car/daily without dropping $10k+. All my buddies run e46 m3's with the usual track setup (full track suspension and weight shaving), so my goal is to keep up with them, but the mini seems to fall a bit short.

And then theres always that part of me that wants to get a classic mini and turn it into a Vtec track monster

 

A lot depends upon the driver of course, but a competently driven M3 runs away from me at Laguna Seca. I can hang with them through turns 2, 3, and 4 but on the short straight to 5 and up the hill through 6 and 7 they disappear. I agree with Eddie07S, if you want to hang with the M cars buy one. If you want a fun track car that can also be an inexpensive daily driver, then the R56 is a great choice. I have had 2 BMWs and the maintenance was $$$. I am having more fun with my R56S at half the price than either of the BMWs. You can have a lot of fun with the car stock, with better tires and some straightforward suspension mods (see my sig) you can have an absolute blast on the track and even embarrass a lot of other cars with more HP. My last track day I was in a run group with a Spec Miata on race tires and a Lotus Elise, the 3 of us had a great time chasing each other around, the poor guy in the CTS had to point us all by.

So it is all a matter of perspective. One of these days I will get a tune. First priority was suspension and tires, next the brakes, and after that the nut behind the wheel. When I think that HP is holding me back I'll get the tune.

 

I use a 2005 R53 with coilovers, brake ducting, cam/tune. At vir & cmp I am faster than the e36 M3's but the E46 M3's pull away from me. I'm a good bit faster than the miata's unless they have aero and can maintain more speed than me in the turns, I have an LSD now so that may close the gap on those guys.

I would never track my E39 it's a heavy beast, the consumables would be very expensive.

My next track car will be an already setup e30, miata or honda challenge car, maybe an e36 but it's hard to go w2w racing from those. Whatever it is will get engine swapped & supercharged and run in hpde until I decide to go to Wheel 2 wheel.

I spend quite a bit on tires and brakes, I like small light cars more and more because of that, everything is cheaper, longer pad life, cheaper tires, longer tire life.

A miata with a 2.5 swap and supercharger/turbo is a seriously fast car on the track, not only do they corner they can actually pass without lifts

 

Thats exactly what I wanted to hear. I actually plan on running Sonoma and Laguna in the future (I'm originally from Monterey so its my back yard). I totally agree with the maintenance costs, I recall every track day with my buddies, at least one of us would break something seriously substantial. I think going for the low power and light weight would be not only more enjoyable but more forgiving.

Honestly, for the time being while I become more experienced as a driver, I think a lightweight r56 with some dialed suspension and a light tune would be plenty fun.

I think its part of the argument about the person behind the wheel too. I remember a bone stock 328is e36 on donut tires absolutely crushing all the e46 m3's and f30's. I asked what had been done to the car and the owner simply said brake pads from walmart (I guess their return policy is very good lol). Turns out he was the director of the entire event that day.

I really do have to admit that I am a sucker for the r56. Ever since owning it I've been tempted to do a full on build, and I think this summer is going to have to be it as I'll be heading back to the west coast.
y

 

Starting to sound like the lSD is a serious must. I'll have to put that on my list. As someone who owned a 97 m3, I can proudly say that they do make superb track cars. Stick with a coupe and you'll be blow away through the corners, just dont expect a kick in the back when you step on it

I just think everything in general is cheaper for minis, yet another reason I am leaning towards keeping mine now instead of jumping to an M.

 

without an LSD you will struggle coming out of turns, it's a gigantic difference on the track, I've done with and without.

I've owned 25 bmw's including e36 m3. Just sold my 135i to focus on a track car, 135i is stupidly expensive to make limp proof on the track.

 

The 135i is a great car, its just a tough one to make track ready. I know someone who had just picked up an n55 135i and slammed it into a wall at Sonoma on his first track day... Such a shame.

Is the track car going to be r53 or e30/miata?

 

I've been tracking my r53, I'm switching to something else next year it just costs too much to make a mini keep up on the straights. I've had crappy drivers refuse to give me a point because I cant keep up on the straights

vid from last vir event

 

Nice footage! Yeah I think the r53 has a little bit less potential power wise, plenty more durable though... What will you be switching to?

 

I will track the mini another year or two then decide, I wanna leave the door open for wheel to wheel racing, miata, e30 and honda challenge are the most appealing to me, all run in the slower race group with nasa. E30 is the biggest field here by far

 

Funny enough I bought the Mini to drive a car with less power that I had to work harder at driving quick. The e39 M5 was so fast that it got boring, sure it handled well but there was never a need to downshift in normal traffic, once you got it into overdrive it would happily rumble along all day.

I was actively cross shopping e36 M3s and R56 Mini JCWs. Somehow I ended up with an awesome Mini S instead. I am really shooting myself for not getting the M3, they are going up in price quickly. I will replace the Mini with an e36 M3 in a few years.

You are absolutely right about dumping lots of money into a BMW to make them fast. They are already rather optimized designs from the factory so there isn't a lot you can do with cheap parts. I remember seeing that a $1000 set of cams for the e36 inline 6 was good for about 9 hp. There are a set of headers for the e39 M5 that are dyno proven for 60 hp over stock, however they are also $5k... That is the go fast BMW world.

 

A $600 Manic tune on the N18 will take the S to about 200-210 WHP in the Stage 1 form and the Alta turbo mod (which will flow more than the JCW turbo) will add some more. RE71R tires for my MINI are $105 each, wheels are 10.5 lbs each (15"). And don't forget gas....at 6 mpg in the BMW vs about 15 in the MINI. Yup it is a lot cheaper. And what pizzaman09 said, the MINI is a car that you have work at to go fast, but the rewards feel really great.

Hope you can handle one more video:

 

I agree with you both %100. I actually went from an 03 m3 to a 97 m3 for this exact reason. With the e46, it just felt boring after time, I needed something that made me work harder to get more out of it. Hence why I got into an e36 which I really loved, but the s52 is just not a motor worth hanging onto for long periods of time. I'd rather wait a year or two and pick up a euro m3 evo with the s50b30.

I was forced to sell the e36 when I moved out here to Texas from the west coast. I was worried the hot summers would ruin the car, hence why I jumped into a new r56. I found that I enjoy driving more, especially in a safer environment. Everyone talks about getting experience driving low power cars and understanding how to push them, so I think thats what I'll be doing.

As for that manic tune, I thought the n18 would pump out more? For some reason I was lead to believe that it made over 200 stock (like 208?). I'll be coming up with a list for modifications that I'll be working towards in the next few weeks, please feel free to critique or add, you're all a great source of knowledge/experience so don't hesitate to jump in!

1- Better coilovers and camber plates(current BC's are toast)
2- Catless downpipe and tune (thinking JB+ for the time being)
3- Drop in filter or DDM race box
4- New tires and pads
5- bucket seats
6- Sneedspeed cage w/harness
7- LSD (probably should be on the top of the list)
8- More weight reduction
9- Alta boost spring

Should be a fun car/build! Eventually I'd like to do an intercooler to get to stage 2, but funding would be pretty scarce at that point. Feel free to recommend anything else guys, sounds like I should look into some serious brake cooling solutions too.

 

The S is 182 Hp factory rated which is about 170 Whp. The JCW is 208 Hp factor rated and about 190 Whp. The Manic Stage 1 (basically stock engine) will get you a bit more than the JCW, hence my comment about the 190-200 range. It depends on who you talk to for the actual numbers. There is a stage 2 and 3 and I believe there is an "a", "b" and "c" with each of the stages. The "b" and "c" on the stage 1 will probably get you the 208+ Whp you are thinking about.

I would add a BBK. The stock brakes will get toasted with an increase in power. Get REAL Race brake pads. With stock brakes, get the Carbotech XP10 or 12s; xp-8s or 10s in the rear. You will toast any so-called street-track pad. You need an intercooler. The stock air filter and box is fine as-is; changing won't get you much.