Hello there.

I'm looking for some big talk with arguments etc not with easy answers like "Do this."
So please anyone that really knows/understand how materials works, and want to share his knowledge PLEASE be my guest and help me choose.

i would like to talk about Turbo+Exhaust manifold heating management options some pros/cons from what i know-understand. I m trying to do the very best for my BAE.

I'm going hybrid so i would like to treat both of them(manifold) as much as i can, so they can perform/last better and longer.

So...CUT TO THE CHASE!!!

There are 3 different materials/products that do this job.

1. Fabric/Textile wrap
2.Ceramic Coat
3.Inconel/SS heat shield barriers(airgap)
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Fabric/Textile wrap
You prevent a big volume of heat going to the rest of the engine bay!
Fabric keeps the heat at the outer surface of the part you wrap(consider it as a sandwich) so it makes also the heat being inside the part. Which is good because it increases the speed of the gas/spool faster.
With the heat staying at the outer effects the metal having more wear/load + might crack under excessive heat/time because the biggest volume of the heat kept between the textile and the metal.


Ceramic Coat
Its not that ''effective'' as the Textile but works a bit smarter...

Keeps the heat at the inner side so the wear/load at the metal is less compared to fabric + makes the pores of the metal being ''sealed'',
so it makes the actual part a tiny bit more solid and less heat dissipation at your engine bay


Inconel Heat Shields


I cant say how effective they are compared with the rest methods and thats why i want your help!!!:D

From what i know/understand

Keeps the heat just like the ''sandwich'' of the textile wrap, but because the conductivity of the inconel is better this cause the heat to be transferred to the heat shield.
Because of the air gapped sheets this prevent also the heat proceed to the engine bay while inconel absorb the heat.
That causes also not to be able to keep the heat that much(compared with coating and textile) so you lose the advantage of the faster spooling because you want to keep heat inside.

The best possible (performance wisely) solution according all that would be a combination of
Ceramic Coat and Textile wrap.

PARADOX??
-Ceramic coating company than sell NO wrap but sell Inconel heat shield says, NOT to wrap with textile its bad and that heatshield inconel is just another option compared to ceramic

-Textile wrap company that sell NO heatshield or Coats , says that there is no problem wrap it over the ceramic and will even improve if those combined.

-Turbo manufacturer who sell s heatshields and not Ceramic or textile says that Stainless Steel (its not Inconel) airgap foil is the best for turbo and also told me 3 times...NOT to ceramic coat and if i want to do something, have a heatshield.


THANK you if you read all this sheet ..:D:D:D

Cant wait for your replies!

Cheers guys!

 

If I was going to invest in heat control of the exhaust, I would get the manifold, turbine housing, and down pipe coated with Swaintech "White Lighting".
https://swaintech.com/race-coatings/...aust-coatings/

And, don't take my word for it, here is a write up from Grassroots Motorsports:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/pr...techs-white-l/

You can find many similar postings from a simple Google search.

 

Thank you for your reply, however your opinion doesnt answer any of my questions :D
I mean...Post istn to find the best ceramic coat in the market neither if there are great products. But which of them perform better and if you can even combine some and have even better results.

 

You are correct, it is just my opinion, since I haven't invested the money yet. To further my opinion in this thread, here is my take on each of your options:
(A) Fabric Wraps: In my opinion, this is the cheapest option, which is why most people go this route. Cheap to buy, and if it fails, just buy more and rewrap. In my opinion, this is also the worst option, since fabric / fiberglass wraps are known to retain moisture, which can lead to premature material failures. However, they are cheap and mostly effective, so have continued to be a popular option.
(B) Inconel Heat Shields: In my opinion, these are not much better than a factory heat shield.
(C) Ceramic Coating: In my opinion, ceramic coatings are the better option if you're looking for the best heat management. Ceramics have been proven to excel at minimizing heat transfer. There is a reason the Space Shuttle was completely coated with ceramic tiles. In my opinion, once you make the decision to go with ceramic coating, might as well go for the one that provides the thickest coating for the least amount of heat transfer. Only one option filters tot he tope of the list: Swaintech.

That's how I come to my conclusion for wanting to use their coating. Yes, totally my opinion, but yeah.

I doubt you're going to get anyone on the forum that has experience with all 3 options you have listed out, and even fewer that have objective data to correlate the differences between the 3 options. Any experience would be purely subjective because you would have to find someone that has installed all three options on the same car and run that car under the exact same conditions, AND has captured data to reflect effectiveness.

Good luck with your search. I hope you find what you're looking for.

 

This very much sounds like marketing talk, at least to me who is as far from being an expert in this matter as possible.

How can ceramic coat be "not as effective" as fabric/textile wrap while letting less heat dissipate to the engine bay? How do you define "effective"? My understanding would be that the more heat dissipates, the less effective the shielding method is (leaving aside factors like differing amounts of heat different materials absorb themselves and different "shielding" capabilities at different temperatures).

Also: I have difficulty imagining what "metal pores" may refer to and how "sealing them" could possibly have an effect on how heat is transferred within a metal object. Even if such "pores" are present: heat would still travel much faster towards the cooler surface going through solid metal itself instead of air filled "pores".

 

Near as I can tell, these "heat management" systems are only good for reducing the effect of radiated heat from the engine bay exhaust components. And about the only bad effect I've seen is melting valve covers --- track performance might melt the hood scoop and/or ruin paint, but little effect on engine performance. You'll get more productive results focusing on FMIC selection to cool incoming air.

Manifold materials for log manifolds are discussed a little in the Garrett tech series. Materials for tube manifolds should be selected for max exhaust temp expected from your engine, and that will vary considerably, depending on the fuel used, compression ratio, boost, etc. When tube materials are selected, then you gotta find a welder that's capable and preferably experienced in fab'ing it to fit your engine with your turbo --- there's all kinds of restrictions in the way. Then there's the practical consideration --- some manifolds are extremely difficult to wrap with anything, and just not cost effective.

And finally, my "disclaimer" --- this post is based only on my experience with my own build. No data was collected, I wasn't about to try wrapping my tubular manifold and I'm nowhere near anyone with manifold fab expertise. There's a few experienced UK aftermarket sources with fab capabilities, but use very different materials. Choose wisely if buying one of them.

 

Im sorry for my alte response i had several issues.

Im not sure if i have to reply to you while you started your answer while being sarcastic tell me if your degree qualify you to answer.

So if you have a physics degree probably you should now that HEAT increases the speed of gas etc...
Just google it and also you can see a random article ive found on google in less than 10 secs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guide...fg8/revision/2

2.Sealing the pores ...YES IS NOT a legitimate explanation ...THATS WHY ive put it on ""! Just trying to explain to you the "big idea" of how it works rather than start calculating numbers with physic equations etc.

3.You talking about intercooler and other things to do when ive said that...ALREADY DONE +much more and this thing got nothing to do with the other. So stop giving other solutions instead of the main issue.Im not asking for better performance , its a topic that would like to understand the "more" fundamental way of these materials works.







PS: Im telling you im sorry for my "aggressive" language but from what ive understand and see your language is sarcastic and talking for irrelevant things while this is not history channel. There is no reason to tell me if its possible to use fabric on manifolds because of its designs, i didnt ask you about that and even a 10yo boy that likes cars can understand that.
If ALL what you said are not sarcastic im telling you "Im sorry". I really do! and THANK you for your time/reply
If ALL of what you said are not sarcastic then im telling you that actually the physics degree you have doesnt qualify you to answer since you dont deeply understand the physics.
If ALL of what you've said are exact as i see understand(while talking sarcastic about cooking and all the rest you said. Im not asking you sorry and i really..
DONT UNDERSTAND the reason you replied on this topic in the first place

PS2: Excuse me if my words are not 100% correct since English is not my native language.

 

Thank you for your reply giorgos.
The metal pores are like this..
https://www.materialsforengineering....transfer/46822

Pores could also make heat transfer faster SOMETIMES(depends on many things).
What i mean if that microscale pores disappear and the surface is much "smoother" it will make a "shield like" effect.
Ofc the heat will always travel faster towards colder surface and you cant prevent that..
But its like pressing just a little bit the brake while you going with 200km/h. Speed might drop at 190. YES ITS still high speed BUT its lower than the 200 :D.

Thank you so much man for your reply and im so sorry i havent replied to you earlier. I really had no time-brain for that.
Cheers!!

 

Apologies are not necessary, a bit of sarcasm was intentional. My degree is in APPLIED physics, and since this thread is limited to automotive exhaust heat management, I'll stand behind my comments. Rationale for the sarcasm --- There are many methods of using each of the three choices you suggest for heat management, most of which involve much more than choice of material. I was trying to emphasize some of these methods and hope you would recognize the futility of your request for this kind of info in a forum like this.

Your English is better than many ESL NAM members. Hope you eventually get the info you're looking for.

 

I must be slow...I don't see a single question in all that.