R56 Another oil consumption thread
#1
03-01-2023, 01:26 AM
Another oil consumption thread
Hello all,
My first post around here. Have been searching around this forum, but I didnt see anything similar to my oil consumption symptoms and with your experience maybe I can get some conclusion.
In a highway drive with a soft ride around 100kmh-120kmh in a 100kms drive the car burns more less 1/2 quarter but if I have a more fast ride like pushing hard and driving in a 140-150kmh the car doesnt burn much oil at all.
My first thinking goes to the PCV that are not closing the valves properly.
So my order of thoughts based in what Ive been reading on the forum, could be:
PCV
Valve seals
Turbo
Piston rings.
Do you guys had any thoughts regarding this type of symptoms?
Best whishes.
My first post around here. Have been searching around this forum, but I didnt see anything similar to my oil consumption symptoms and with your experience maybe I can get some conclusion.
In a highway drive with a soft ride around 100kmh-120kmh in a 100kms drive the car burns more less 1/2 quarter but if I have a more fast ride like pushing hard and driving in a 140-150kmh the car doesnt burn much oil at all.
My first thinking goes to the PCV that are not closing the valves properly.
So my order of thoughts based in what Ive been reading on the forum, could be:
PCV
Valve seals
Turbo
Piston rings.
Do you guys had any thoughts regarding this type of symptoms?
Best whishes.
#4
03-01-2023, 06:28 AM
Hello all,
My first post around here. Have been searching around this forum, but I didnt see anything similar to my oil consumption symptoms and with your experience maybe I can get some conclusion.
In a highway drive with a soft ride around 100kmh-120kmh in a 100kms drive the car burns more less 1/2 quarter but if I have a more fast ride like pushing hard and driving in a 140-150kmh the car doesnt burn much oil at all.
My first thinking goes to the PCV that are not closing the valves properly.
So my order of thoughts based in what Ive been reading on the forum, could be:
PCV
Valve seals
Turbo
Piston rings.
Do you guys had any thoughts regarding this type of symptoms?
Best whishes.
My first post around here. Have been searching around this forum, but I didnt see anything similar to my oil consumption symptoms and with your experience maybe I can get some conclusion.
In a highway drive with a soft ride around 100kmh-120kmh in a 100kms drive the car burns more less 1/2 quarter but if I have a more fast ride like pushing hard and driving in a 140-150kmh the car doesnt burn much oil at all.
My first thinking goes to the PCV that are not closing the valves properly.
So my order of thoughts based in what Ive been reading on the forum, could be:
PCV
Valve seals
Turbo
Piston rings.
Do you guys had any thoughts regarding this type of symptoms?
Best whishes.
But excessive idling can also result in an uptick in oil consumption. Mostly fleet vehicles can experience long periods of idling but surprisingly -- after having seen data logs of my cars and other vehicles -- passenger vehicles can spend a good amount of time at idle. Short trips especially.
But what can happen that really sets off oil consumption alarms in the driver's head is a car gets driven around in town. Short trips. Engine doesn't get all that hot. Water builds up in the oil.
Oil is being consumed but it can be replaced by water so the level stays relatively stationary.
Then the car's normal usage pattern is upset by a longer drive, or in your case a more spirited drive, during which the engine gets hotter and stays hotter and long enough that the oil temperature climbs to over 212F. This boils the water out of the oil -- turns the water to vapor (steam) -- and because the engine is hot enough the water vapor doesn't condense while still inside the crankcase but instead as intended is carried out via the crankcase ventilation system. This is good and one reason the crankcase ventilation system is fitted to engines.
But the surprise is when the oil level is checked the oil level is down considerably. If one extrapolates the amount of oil "consumed" from this rather short driving event to say 5K miles the oil consumption level is alarming.
Sure, oil can be consumed via the things you mentioned but almost invariably there will be times the engine smokes. A bit of oil smoke at cold engine start can be normal and occurs for reasons I won't detail here. But smoking at hot start or while on the road -- taking off from a stop or at speed taking your foot off the gas pedal and letting the car slow down from engine braking then at some point applying the throttle with some enthusiasm -- is not normal and this smoking strongly suggests there's a problem. (A tip: Arrange to be facing away from a low sun (morning or afternoon) and if there is any oil smoke it will be more obvious with the benefit of the light provided by the low sun.)
Will add when techs want to confirm there is or is *not* an oil consumption problem a proper oil/filter service is done and the oil level carefully noted. Then the owner is sent on his way. After a period of time -- a week or more but it really depends upon the amount of usage the car receives -- the car is back in and the oil level checked under the same conditions it was checked before the customer was sent out. Any change is noted. And the tech works out how much oil would be used over 1000km or 600 miles. With other cars (Porsche) the car maker only considered oil consumption to be excessive if it was 1l/1000km or 1qt/1000 miles.
I will mention that with some of my cars I had access to coolant temperature and oil temperature (and pressure), and in real time. What I observed -- and this jived with what I had observed with other cars using an OBD2 scan tool to monitor coolant temperature (oil temperature was not available) -- is starting out with the engine cold and after a short drive (~1 mile) on surface streets then getting on the freeway and driving at a steady 65mph the coolant didn't get as hot as I thought it would. But with oil temperature available with my newer car I also noted how cool the oil stayed.
The flip side is after a cold start when I subjected this car to ~5 miles of driving in town I observed the coolant temperature climbed to the point (217F) the radiator fans came on and the oil temperature climbed even higher to 230F to 240F depending on the ambient temperature. (But once on the freeway these temperatures came down to around 200F pretty quick.)
Actually I felt rather relieved to see the coolant and oil at these elevated temperatures as the elevated oil temperature (and engine coolant temperature) would boil the water to steam and it would be removed by the crankcase ventilation system.
Anyhow, you can do a disciplined oil consumption test on your own. Ideally you should start this with fresh oil in the engine to ensure there is no water in the old oil.
Then set the oil level at with the vehicle level and the engine up to temperature. Then drive the car as you normally would and over some time probably at least a week (I drove 300 miles a week when I worked) but you may need to drive 2 weeks or more and then check the oil level under the *same* conditions as when you initially set the level. Be sure you record (sketch it in a notebook or take a pic) the oil level. Don't rely on your memory. If you see the oil level falling then the engine is using oil. But that is not necessarily sufficient reason to condemn the engine. Some oil usage is normal. Absent any smoking while driving the vehicle or oil consumption that approaches that 1l per 1000km or 1qt per 600 miles guideline I mentioned above that's excessive and probably deserves addressing. But it can be expensive...
#5
03-01-2023, 08:03 AM
Generally more spirited driving, high RPMs, will consume more oil than just the more sedate usage most cars get day to day.
But excessive idling can also result in an uptick in oil consumption. Mostly fleet vehicles can experience long periods of idling but surprisingly -- after having seen data logs of my cars and other vehicles -- passenger vehicles can spend a good amount of time at idle. Short trips especially.
But what can happen that really sets off oil consumption alarms in the driver's head is a car gets driven around in town. Short trips. Engine doesn't get all that hot. Water builds up in the oil.
Oil is being consumed but it can be replaced by water so the level stays relatively stationary.
Then the car's normal usage pattern is upset by a longer drive, or in your case a more spirited drive, during which the engine gets hotter and stays hotter and long enough that the oil temperature climbs to over 212F. This boils the water out of the oil -- turns the water to vapor (steam) -- and because the engine is hot enough the water vapor doesn't condense while still inside the crankcase but instead as intended is carried out via the crankcase ventilation system. This is good and one reason the crankcase ventilation system is fitted to engines.
But the surprise is when the oil level is checked the oil level is down considerably. If one extrapolates the amount of oil "consumed" from this rather short driving event to say 5K miles the oil consumption level is alarming.
Sure, oil can be consumed via the things you mentioned but almost invariably there will be times the engine smokes. A bit of oil smoke at cold engine start can be normal and occurs for reasons I won't detail here. But smoking at hot start or while on the road -- taking off from a stop or at speed taking your foot off the gas pedal and letting the car slow down from engine braking then at some point applying the throttle with some enthusiasm -- is not normal and this smoking strongly suggests there's a problem. (A tip: Arrange to be facing away from a low sun (morning or afternoon) and if there is any oil smoke it will be more obvious with the benefit of the light provided by the low sun.)
Will add when techs want to confirm there is or is *not* an oil consumption problem a proper oil/filter service is done and the oil level carefully noted. Then the owner is sent on his way. After a period of time -- a week or more but it really depends upon the amount of usage the car receives -- the car is back in and the oil level checked under the same conditions it was checked before the customer was sent out. Any change is noted. And the tech works out how much oil would be used over 1000km or 600 miles. With other cars (Porsche) the car maker only considered oil consumption to be excessive if it was 1l/1000km or 1qt/1000 miles.
I will mention that with some of my cars I had access to coolant temperature and oil temperature (and pressure), and in real time. What I observed -- and this jived with what I had observed with other cars using an OBD2 scan tool to monitor coolant temperature (oil temperature was not available) -- is starting out with the engine cold and after a short drive (~1 mile) on surface streets then getting on the freeway and driving at a steady 65mph the coolant didn't get as hot as I thought it would. But with oil temperature available with my newer car I also noted how cool the oil stayed.
The flip side is after a cold start when I subjected this car to ~5 miles of driving in town I observed the coolant temperature climbed to the point (217F) the radiator fans came on and the oil temperature climbed even higher to 230F to 240F depending on the ambient temperature. (But once on the freeway these temperatures came down to around 200F pretty quick.)
Actually I felt rather relieved to see the coolant and oil at these elevated temperatures as the elevated oil temperature (and engine coolant temperature) would boil the water to steam and it would be removed by the crankcase ventilation system.
Anyhow, you can do a disciplined oil consumption test on your own. Ideally you should start this with fresh oil in the engine to ensure there is no water in the old oil.
Then set the oil level at with the vehicle level and the engine up to temperature. Then drive the car as you normally would and over some time probably at least a week (I drove 300 miles a week when I worked) but you may need to drive 2 weeks or more and then check the oil level under the *same* conditions as when you initially set the level. Be sure you record (sketch it in a notebook or take a pic) the oil level. Don't rely on your memory. If you see the oil level falling then the engine is using oil. But that is not necessarily sufficient reason to condemn the engine. Some oil usage is normal. Absent any smoking while driving the vehicle or oil consumption that approaches that 1l per 1000km or 1qt per 600 miles guideline I mentioned above that's excessive and probably deserves addressing. But it can be expensive...
But excessive idling can also result in an uptick in oil consumption. Mostly fleet vehicles can experience long periods of idling but surprisingly -- after having seen data logs of my cars and other vehicles -- passenger vehicles can spend a good amount of time at idle. Short trips especially.
But what can happen that really sets off oil consumption alarms in the driver's head is a car gets driven around in town. Short trips. Engine doesn't get all that hot. Water builds up in the oil.
Oil is being consumed but it can be replaced by water so the level stays relatively stationary.
Then the car's normal usage pattern is upset by a longer drive, or in your case a more spirited drive, during which the engine gets hotter and stays hotter and long enough that the oil temperature climbs to over 212F. This boils the water out of the oil -- turns the water to vapor (steam) -- and because the engine is hot enough the water vapor doesn't condense while still inside the crankcase but instead as intended is carried out via the crankcase ventilation system. This is good and one reason the crankcase ventilation system is fitted to engines.
But the surprise is when the oil level is checked the oil level is down considerably. If one extrapolates the amount of oil "consumed" from this rather short driving event to say 5K miles the oil consumption level is alarming.
Sure, oil can be consumed via the things you mentioned but almost invariably there will be times the engine smokes. A bit of oil smoke at cold engine start can be normal and occurs for reasons I won't detail here. But smoking at hot start or while on the road -- taking off from a stop or at speed taking your foot off the gas pedal and letting the car slow down from engine braking then at some point applying the throttle with some enthusiasm -- is not normal and this smoking strongly suggests there's a problem. (A tip: Arrange to be facing away from a low sun (morning or afternoon) and if there is any oil smoke it will be more obvious with the benefit of the light provided by the low sun.)
Will add when techs want to confirm there is or is *not* an oil consumption problem a proper oil/filter service is done and the oil level carefully noted. Then the owner is sent on his way. After a period of time -- a week or more but it really depends upon the amount of usage the car receives -- the car is back in and the oil level checked under the same conditions it was checked before the customer was sent out. Any change is noted. And the tech works out how much oil would be used over 1000km or 600 miles. With other cars (Porsche) the car maker only considered oil consumption to be excessive if it was 1l/1000km or 1qt/1000 miles.
I will mention that with some of my cars I had access to coolant temperature and oil temperature (and pressure), and in real time. What I observed -- and this jived with what I had observed with other cars using an OBD2 scan tool to monitor coolant temperature (oil temperature was not available) -- is starting out with the engine cold and after a short drive (~1 mile) on surface streets then getting on the freeway and driving at a steady 65mph the coolant didn't get as hot as I thought it would. But with oil temperature available with my newer car I also noted how cool the oil stayed.
The flip side is after a cold start when I subjected this car to ~5 miles of driving in town I observed the coolant temperature climbed to the point (217F) the radiator fans came on and the oil temperature climbed even higher to 230F to 240F depending on the ambient temperature. (But once on the freeway these temperatures came down to around 200F pretty quick.)
Actually I felt rather relieved to see the coolant and oil at these elevated temperatures as the elevated oil temperature (and engine coolant temperature) would boil the water to steam and it would be removed by the crankcase ventilation system.
Anyhow, you can do a disciplined oil consumption test on your own. Ideally you should start this with fresh oil in the engine to ensure there is no water in the old oil.
Then set the oil level at with the vehicle level and the engine up to temperature. Then drive the car as you normally would and over some time probably at least a week (I drove 300 miles a week when I worked) but you may need to drive 2 weeks or more and then check the oil level under the *same* conditions as when you initially set the level. Be sure you record (sketch it in a notebook or take a pic) the oil level. Don't rely on your memory. If you see the oil level falling then the engine is using oil. But that is not necessarily sufficient reason to condemn the engine. Some oil usage is normal. Absent any smoking while driving the vehicle or oil consumption that approaches that 1l per 1000km or 1qt per 600 miles guideline I mentioned above that's excessive and probably deserves addressing. But it can be expensive...
Reading your explanation which was an enlightenment for me when you mentioned " But smoking at hot start or while on the road -- taking off from a stop or at speed taking your foot off the gas pedal and letting the car slow down from engine braking then at some point applying the throttle with some enthusiasm -- is not normal and this smoking strongly suggests there's a problem.", its exactly what I see when someone is behind me with lights on or with the sunset behind.
I've been monitoring through OBD the oil/coolant temperatures and its seems all normal behavior..., however in other cars seems to be more delay between coolant and oil temperature. Let say that in another car I have, the oil temp rise slower and only when almost coolant temperature is above 60-70ºC. Nevertheless, I didn't see yet any power loss.
Bad gasket or should I start by more simple and cheaper things like pcv, valve seals , turbo before rebuilding the head? Another thing is when I foot down the whistle of the turbo looks like more a fan than the high pitched normal sound of a turbo....
#6
03-02-2023, 01:32 AM
Thank you for your reply.
Reading your explanation which was an enlightenment for me when you mentioned " But smoking at hot start or while on the road -- taking off from a stop or at speed taking your foot off the gas pedal and letting the car slow down from engine braking then at some point applying the throttle with some enthusiasm -- is not normal and this smoking strongly suggests there's a problem.", its exactly what I see when someone is behind me with lights on or with the sunset behind.
I've been monitoring through OBD the oil/coolant temperatures and its seems all normal behavior..., however in other cars seems to be more delay between coolant and oil temperature. Let say that in another car I have, the oil temp rise slower and only when almost coolant temperature is above 60-70ºC. Nevertheless, I didn't see yet any power loss.
Bad gasket or should I start by more simple and cheaper things like pcv, valve seals , turbo before rebuilding the head? Another thing is when I foot down the whistle of the turbo looks like more a fan than the high pitched normal sound of a turbo....
Reading your explanation which was an enlightenment for me when you mentioned " But smoking at hot start or while on the road -- taking off from a stop or at speed taking your foot off the gas pedal and letting the car slow down from engine braking then at some point applying the throttle with some enthusiasm -- is not normal and this smoking strongly suggests there's a problem.", its exactly what I see when someone is behind me with lights on or with the sunset behind.
I've been monitoring through OBD the oil/coolant temperatures and its seems all normal behavior..., however in other cars seems to be more delay between coolant and oil temperature. Let say that in another car I have, the oil temp rise slower and only when almost coolant temperature is above 60-70ºC. Nevertheless, I didn't see yet any power loss.
Bad gasket or should I start by more simple and cheaper things like pcv, valve seals , turbo before rebuilding the head? Another thing is when I foot down the whistle of the turbo looks like more a fan than the high pitched normal sound of a turbo....
#7
03-03-2023, 06:46 AM
Thank you for your reply.
Reading your explanation which was an enlightenment for me when you mentioned " But smoking at hot start or while on the road -- taking off from a stop or at speed taking your foot off the gas pedal and letting the car slow down from engine braking then at some point applying the throttle with some enthusiasm -- is not normal and this smoking strongly suggests there's a problem.", its exactly what I see when someone is behind me with lights on or with the sunset behind.
I've been monitoring through OBD the oil/coolant temperatures and its seems all normal behavior..., however in other cars seems to be more delay between coolant and oil temperature. Let say that in another car I have, the oil temp rise slower and only when almost coolant temperature is above 60-70ºC. Nevertheless, I didn't see yet any power loss.
Bad gasket or should I start by more simple and cheaper things like pcv, valve seals , turbo before rebuilding the head? Another thing is when I foot down the whistle of the turbo looks like more a fan than the high pitched normal sound of a turbo....
Reading your explanation which was an enlightenment for me when you mentioned " But smoking at hot start or while on the road -- taking off from a stop or at speed taking your foot off the gas pedal and letting the car slow down from engine braking then at some point applying the throttle with some enthusiasm -- is not normal and this smoking strongly suggests there's a problem.", its exactly what I see when someone is behind me with lights on or with the sunset behind.
I've been monitoring through OBD the oil/coolant temperatures and its seems all normal behavior..., however in other cars seems to be more delay between coolant and oil temperature. Let say that in another car I have, the oil temp rise slower and only when almost coolant temperature is above 60-70ºC. Nevertheless, I didn't see yet any power loss.
Bad gasket or should I start by more simple and cheaper things like pcv, valve seals , turbo before rebuilding the head? Another thing is when I foot down the whistle of the turbo looks like more a fan than the high pitched normal sound of a turbo....
From a cold start oil temperature lags coolant temperature. This is normal.
Then once the engine is up to temperature the two temperatures stay closer but don't rise and fall together.
The engine smoking you observe is almost certainly due to an internal engine problem. Valve stem seals, oil control rings. Oil getting past the turbo seals is also another possibility. A careful inspection of the turbo looking for oil leak sign on the turbine (exhaust) side and the compressor (intake) side can confirm or eliminate the turbo as the cause of the smoking.
Less likely but I'll mention it, with at least one car I have owned a what proved to be bad air/oil separator (AOS) caused smoking but in this case all the time. Pic:
This was the 2nd AOS to go bad. They had a service life of around 80K to 100K miles.
You can of course spend the time to refresh the engine.
But if the oil consumption is not unreasonable -- 1l/1000km or worse -- and the engine continues to run ok with no misfires or other signs of distress an argument can be made to leave sleeping dogs lie...
If you decide to address the smoking you might "get by" with just throwing new valve stem seals in. But doing this only after you have verified the turbo is not the source of the oil that is producing the smoke.
You might get lucky. I hope you are lucky if you go that route, though I'm not making a recommendation one way or the other. But if new valve stem seals don't help and they could (possibly) make things worse as there could be more oil pulled past the oil control rings then you have to go deeper into the engine. The phrase "can of worms" comes to mind...
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