R56 R53 versus R56... a visual study
#251
11-17-2006, 06:22 AM
I could be wrong, but it sure seems that way.
#252
12-28-2006, 09:20 AM
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those who do not appreciate the R56 should not be dismissed as nutjobs, obsessives, or hangers-on who are lamenting that the new model isn't a perfect, shrunken 1960s replica in "surf blue." many are distressed at the changes forced by economic considerations, and the lack of imagination bmw has used to resolve some of the impending safety regulations, which have made the new version much more ordinary, and diffused its character a great deal. i am not disappointed by change, that is inevitable. what i dislike about the revise is that many of the changes make the mini look cheaper-- and that is not acceptable. the mini now belies its own name: it is now bigger than many of the cars now on the market which have been designed to imitate it. it will now be, really, just bmw's version of a vw gti/golf, and that is not particularly interesting. considering how important the factor of "emotion" has been for many mini buyers-- and considering how this itself has factored into bmw's ability to sell mini's at premium prices-- which has made the mini brand even more important to bmw's finances than they had anticipated-- it is shocking to witness how far they have gone to dilute the car's emotional roots.
Last edited by vladimir; 01-03-2007 at 12:52 PM. Reason: typos
#253
12-28-2006, 10:13 AM
#254
12-28-2006, 10:17 AM
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Was that ever really on the table? I can't see that they would even consider dropping the MINI after such a large investment in building the brand and the dealer network. And besides, isn't the 1 series in another price range?
#255
12-28-2006, 10:32 AM
#256
12-28-2006, 10:44 AM
what i dislike about the revise is that many of the changes make the mini look cheaper-- and that is not acceptable. the mini now belies its own name: it is now bigger than many of the cars now on the market which have been designed to imitate it. it will now be really, just bmw's version of a vw gti/golf, and i am not interested in that. .
Then why are you trolling with this post? Hello hipocracy...
#257
12-28-2006, 06:31 PM
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The fact is, the R53 MINI should have never made it to production. BMW was not used to designing at that pricepoint, and they spent far too much in R&D. They made it clear from the outset that the R56 would be designed to optimize their net profit.
The other fact is, the R53 was designed by Frank Stephenson, not a Chris Bangle protegé. Frank went on to work at Ferrari. The world understood the purity and beauty of his design.
In total, Frank's R53 will be hailed as a timeless classic. It is a marvelous blend of function and form, a perfectly conceived and executed design vision.
I cannot say the same for the R56. It is a confusing mix of design details, compromises, and muddled vision. Is it a luxury car or a performance car? Is it MINI or MAXI? Is it elegant or a rice rocket?
But no, I do not lay all blame at the feet of the designers who were tasked with the R56. I've been in the design field long enough to know when things arrive from a singular, focused vision, and when something is "design by committee." The R56 represents the latter.
#258
12-28-2006, 06:51 PM
Deliberately, certainly not. I doubt that BMW designers "deliberately" made the last few generations of BMWs look like ***** either, though.
The fact is, the R53 MINI should have never made it to production. BMW was not used to designing at that pricepoint, and they spent far too much in R&D. They made it clear from the outset that the R56 would be designed to optimize their net profit.
The other fact is, the R53 was designed by Frank Stephenson, not a Chris Bangle protegé. Frank went on to work at Ferrari. The world understood the purity and beauty of his design.
In total, Frank's R53 will be hailed as a timeless classic. It is a marvelous blend of function and form, a perfectly conceived and executed design vision.
I cannot say the same for the R56. It is a confusing mix of design details, compromises, and muddled vision. Is it a luxury car or a performance car? Is it MINI or MAXI? Is it elegant or a rice rocket?
But no, I do not lay all blame at the feet of the designers who were tasked with the R56. I've been in the design field long enough to know when things arrive from a singular, focused vision, and when something is "design by committee." The R56 represents the latter.
The fact is, the R53 MINI should have never made it to production. BMW was not used to designing at that pricepoint, and they spent far too much in R&D. They made it clear from the outset that the R56 would be designed to optimize their net profit.
The other fact is, the R53 was designed by Frank Stephenson, not a Chris Bangle protegé. Frank went on to work at Ferrari. The world understood the purity and beauty of his design.
In total, Frank's R53 will be hailed as a timeless classic. It is a marvelous blend of function and form, a perfectly conceived and executed design vision.
I cannot say the same for the R56. It is a confusing mix of design details, compromises, and muddled vision. Is it a luxury car or a performance car? Is it MINI or MAXI? Is it elegant or a rice rocket?
But no, I do not lay all blame at the feet of the designers who were tasked with the R56. I've been in the design field long enough to know when things arrive from a singular, focused vision, and when something is "design by committee." The R56 represents the latter.
Wow...yet another troll... If you don't like it...don't buy it...
Why do I get the feeling that the majority of the R56 haters on here are talking it down just so they can feel better about their own cars... reminds me of the short man syndrome and the corresponding attraction to a hummer...
I love the mini...both versions... why do you feel the need to bash the second generation...cherish what you have...don't hate what you don't..
#260
12-28-2006, 11:32 PM
Mostly it's in-crowd nitpicking, IMO. There's a lot to like in both generations. I'm looking forward to mine, and it'll pair up nicely with my wife's '04 MC. Once I have it, I do plan on doing some photographic comparisons side-by-side.
#261
12-29-2006, 03:28 AM
#262
12-29-2006, 03:50 AM
Bingo....there's no reason for doom and gloom. One can discuss aesthetics all they want, but when I see R56, I like it (always have)....in fact, there's a lot I like better (makes more design sense) with R56 than with my own R50.
As for cost savings, I believe BMW for the most part have done this the right way and very little of this actually makes it where you can see and touch it. Some, maybe....most, no. Again....doom-sayers are overreacting.
Many folks will always prefer R50/53...no problem. But try not to be blinded to the true benefits and improvements made on R56. To dismiss it totally is frankly not an option, imo.
As for cost savings, I believe BMW for the most part have done this the right way and very little of this actually makes it where you can see and touch it. Some, maybe....most, no. Again....doom-sayers are overreacting.
Many folks will always prefer R50/53...no problem. But try not to be blinded to the true benefits and improvements made on R56. To dismiss it totally is frankly not an option, imo.
#264
12-29-2006, 09:11 AM
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Wow...yet another troll... If you don't like it...don't buy it...
Why do I get the feeling that the majority of the R56 haters on here are talking it down just so they can feel better about their own cars... reminds me of the short man syndrome and the corresponding attraction to a hummer...
I love the mini...both versions... why do you feel the need to bash the second generation...cherish what you have...don't hate what you don't..
Why do I get the feeling that the majority of the R56 haters on here are talking it down just so they can feel better about their own cars... reminds me of the short man syndrome and the corresponding attraction to a hummer...
I love the mini...both versions... why do you feel the need to bash the second generation...cherish what you have...don't hate what you don't..
Pet never said he 'hated' anything. That's a word you used. We are all allowed to dislike things. It's what makes the world go 'round. And the thread is a 'versus' thread. Does that mean that only _your_ side of the versus can be (safely) expressed? And the hummer comparison? Irrelevant and ridiculous.
And just to be clear, I prefer the R50/R53 series. That's why I traded in a <2 year old car to buy one, something I had never done before. The attraction was _that_ strong. The R56 does not 'speak' to me at all. Do I think the R56 is doomed to failure? No, it will sell. It's just that it doesn't make anywhere near the same emotional connection with _me_ as the R50/53. I am entitled to think, or more accurately, react, that way. We are all entitled to have our preferences.
#265
12-29-2006, 09:21 AM
I actually agree with petsounds. If that makes me a troll, so be it, although I think we could do without the liberal application of the word "troll" towards anyone with a dissenting opinion.
Do I think that really appreciating how great the R50/R53 was means that I couldn't be happy with an R56? No. That's why I plan on purchasing an R55 when the time comes. However, I personally see the R56 (and "clubman" concepts) as more of a 996 evolution (exterior wise) than a 997 evolution.
Do I think that really appreciating how great the R50/R53 was means that I couldn't be happy with an R56? No. That's why I plan on purchasing an R55 when the time comes. However, I personally see the R56 (and "clubman" concepts) as more of a 996 evolution (exterior wise) than a 997 evolution.
Wow...yet another troll... If you don't like it...don't buy it...
Why do I get the feeling that the majority of the R56 haters on here are talking it down just so they can feel better about their own cars... reminds me of the short man syndrome and the corresponding attraction to a hummer...
I love the mini...both versions... why do you feel the need to bash the second generation...cherish what you have...don't hate what you don't..
Why do I get the feeling that the majority of the R56 haters on here are talking it down just so they can feel better about their own cars... reminds me of the short man syndrome and the corresponding attraction to a hummer...
I love the mini...both versions... why do you feel the need to bash the second generation...cherish what you have...don't hate what you don't..
#266
12-29-2006, 09:52 AM
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I agree. And the 996 sold quite well, in spite of the 993 crowd. Now, the 997, is a wonderful synthesis, indeed. From an overall MINI enthusiast perspective, we should all want the R56 to do quite well, as that is good (vital) for the on-going health of the marque. We've got to remember the R56 will still be so much more fun to drive than many (most) other cars out there, too!
#267
12-29-2006, 09:57 AM
I think the R53 is sexier, lower, more sports car like. I think the R56 is burlier, more muscular looking, more rally car like. R53s look best on 17s, lowered a bit, touring car look. R56s look best on 16s, meatier tires, with some hike for suspension travel - definite rally car look. The split front grill on the R53 was always a lousy compromise, but needed because the car was low. The R56 because it had to be taller at the nose did not have to make that compromise, and the one piece grill dipping into the bumper is definitely a nicer resolution.
Well, that's all just my opinion. I really like both cars a lot. I can't wait to see what the next version looks like - damn, and thats going to be what? 8 more years. Crap!
Well, that's all just my opinion. I really like both cars a lot. I can't wait to see what the next version looks like - damn, and thats going to be what? 8 more years. Crap!
#268
12-29-2006, 10:29 AM
Wow! Lot's of slamming of the R56 going on here.
Somehow I thought that people love the Mini Cooper primarily because of its driving characteristics. I'm new to this car. I really don't see much difference in looks between the two (although I chose the R56 S because it doesn't cannote the word, "cute" when I look at the car).
As far as BMW's design work is concerned, I'm impressed. I want the feel and driving characteristics of a BMW but choose not to pay for one. As I see it, this little guy seems to meet that criteria better than any other car costing less than $30K.
The new R56 engine, so far, has been reviewed very highly. I like the idea of an engine that BMW designed, an engine that makes use of the latest technological advances. Imagine, more power with significantly better gas mileage. Also, I've always loved turbos because of their very broad, flat torque range. This characteristic has been especially noted by the reviewers.
Handling: The reviews say handling is still up to the R53 tradition but more refined with a less jarring ride on rough roads (still great handling but with fewer of the less desirable charactics). To me, that's progress.
Safety: The current Mini Cooper is rated, "good", "acceptable", and "marginal" (front, side, rear) in crash tests. BMW says that getting a full 5 star rating on the European crash test program was a key goal in the design of the R56. That's important to me. If segments of the car had to be shaped a little differently in order to meet these goals, that's a good thing.
Somehow I thought that people love the Mini Cooper primarily because of its driving characteristics. I'm new to this car. I really don't see much difference in looks between the two (although I chose the R56 S because it doesn't cannote the word, "cute" when I look at the car).
As far as BMW's design work is concerned, I'm impressed. I want the feel and driving characteristics of a BMW but choose not to pay for one. As I see it, this little guy seems to meet that criteria better than any other car costing less than $30K.
The new R56 engine, so far, has been reviewed very highly. I like the idea of an engine that BMW designed, an engine that makes use of the latest technological advances. Imagine, more power with significantly better gas mileage. Also, I've always loved turbos because of their very broad, flat torque range. This characteristic has been especially noted by the reviewers.
Handling: The reviews say handling is still up to the R53 tradition but more refined with a less jarring ride on rough roads (still great handling but with fewer of the less desirable charactics). To me, that's progress.
Safety: The current Mini Cooper is rated, "good", "acceptable", and "marginal" (front, side, rear) in crash tests. BMW says that getting a full 5 star rating on the European crash test program was a key goal in the design of the R56. That's important to me. If segments of the car had to be shaped a little differently in order to meet these goals, that's a good thing.
#269
12-30-2006, 05:43 PM
Well if we're comparing R56 to a classic Mini then that's a whole different matter. Frankly, the Mini would be gone from the face of the earth nowadays, right? Not safe enough. Being extinct is not necessarily a bad thing for those collecting/restoring (assuming they can get parts)....but I have lots of friends who restore classics and also enthusiastically use a MINI as their daily driver.
It's not like R56 being a tad bit larger to meet crash standards will bring on the Apocalypse and the end of life as we know it, but I do agree...if we see this trend continue unabated it'll look a whole lot different in retrospect. I prefer to err on the side of optimism for R56 (because I like it), but there is a whole world of Mini enthusiasts who were barely on-board with R50...much less R56. I guess can see where they may be coming from.
Fortunately, overall the Mini-loving Brits (young and old...and even the motoring press) seem to like the MINI big time....and even R56!!!!
That alone should be encouraging.
It's not like R56 being a tad bit larger to meet crash standards will bring on the Apocalypse and the end of life as we know it, but I do agree...if we see this trend continue unabated it'll look a whole lot different in retrospect. I prefer to err on the side of optimism for R56 (because I like it), but there is a whole world of Mini enthusiasts who were barely on-board with R50...much less R56. I guess can see where they may be coming from.
Fortunately, overall the Mini-loving Brits (young and old...and even the motoring press) seem to like the MINI big time....and even R56!!!!
That alone should be encouraging.$
#270
12-30-2006, 05:47 PM
It is disappointing, yes...especially when folks who are theoretically enthusiasts get really ugly and belittling. I think perhaps they 1) don't handle change well, 2) feel threatened by the new model, or 3) are just having a bad day. That said...there's been little really mean-spirited stuff here in comparison with all the comments made. Lots of questions and puzzled looks and the like, but I suppose that's to be expected when one is hanging on every press release, article, and snap shot of the new model. The really brave/crazy ones have even resorted to Photoshop tactics to get a bead on the real deal. 
News coming out of (and following) the test drives have soothed some nerves.
I look at it all as sort of a normal thing....we've obsessed equally over much smaller tweaks, I assure you!!! Although I, too love R56, I do defend those luminaries among the enthusiast community who will always prefer R50/53. I can see their perspective...I've had nothing but love for mine!
I predict that once R56 actually shows up here in the U.S. (one of these days)...and especially when new R56 owners show up at events with those goofy smiles all new owners seem to posess...the rough spots will smooth over because the MINI community will have expanded quite effortlessly. Let's hope that those new R56 enthusiasts can show equal respect for the venerable R50/53s still proudly motoring about. As erick says, "It speaks to me." That level of engagement is what it's all about, in my opinion, whether referring to appearance, option, model, transmission, or performance preferences. It's all the reason we should ever need.
News coming out of (and following) the test drives have soothed some nerves. I look at it all as sort of a normal thing....we've obsessed equally over much smaller tweaks, I assure you!!! Although I, too love R56, I do defend those luminaries among the enthusiast community who will always prefer R50/53. I can see their perspective...I've had nothing but love for mine!
I predict that once R56 actually shows up here in the U.S. (one of these days)...and especially when new R56 owners show up at events with those goofy smiles all new owners seem to posess...the rough spots will smooth over because the MINI community will have expanded quite effortlessly. Let's hope that those new R56 enthusiasts can show equal respect for the venerable R50/53s still proudly motoring about. As erick says, "It speaks to me." That level of engagement is what it's all about, in my opinion, whether referring to appearance, option, model, transmission, or performance preferences. It's all the reason we should ever need.
#272
12-30-2006, 05:56 PM
Deliberately, certainly not. I doubt that BMW designers "deliberately" made the last few generations of BMWs look like ***** either, though.
The fact is, the R53 MINI should have never made it to production. BMW was not used to designing at that pricepoint, and they spent far too much in R&D. They made it clear from the outset that the R56 would be designed to optimize their net profit.
The other fact is, the R53 was designed by Frank Stephenson, not a Chris Bangle protegé. Frank went on to work at Ferrari. The world understood the purity and beauty of his design.
In total, Frank's R53 will be hailed as a timeless classic. It is a marvelous blend of function and form, a perfectly conceived and executed design vision.
I cannot say the same for the R56. It is a confusing mix of design details, compromises, and muddled vision. Is it a luxury car or a performance car? Is it MINI or MAXI? Is it elegant or a rice rocket?
But no, I do not lay all blame at the feet of the designers who were tasked with the R56. I've been in the design field long enough to know when things arrive from a singular, focused vision, and when something is "design by committee." The R56 represents the latter.
The fact is, the R53 MINI should have never made it to production. BMW was not used to designing at that pricepoint, and they spent far too much in R&D. They made it clear from the outset that the R56 would be designed to optimize their net profit.
The other fact is, the R53 was designed by Frank Stephenson, not a Chris Bangle protegé. Frank went on to work at Ferrari. The world understood the purity and beauty of his design.
In total, Frank's R53 will be hailed as a timeless classic. It is a marvelous blend of function and form, a perfectly conceived and executed design vision.
I cannot say the same for the R56. It is a confusing mix of design details, compromises, and muddled vision. Is it a luxury car or a performance car? Is it MINI or MAXI? Is it elegant or a rice rocket?
But no, I do not lay all blame at the feet of the designers who were tasked with the R56. I've been in the design field long enough to know when things arrive from a singular, focused vision, and when something is "design by committee." The R56 represents the latter.
#274
01-02-2007, 08:35 AM
