So Boys and Girls, what have we learned from this thread?

Someone who has driven an 07 MCS thought it was softer and less go-kart-like. Was it the sport model, or regular, or runflats, or 16, or 17s, or.... yeah, we don't know all of the details.

We DO know that the 07's will have many changes, and although many may not be for the better... some probably will be. Also, just remember that it is best not to judge something until you have all of the facts, and although it is hard, we are just going to have to wait until a few of these hit the streets of NA and we get to see them and drive them.

Drew

 

Muffy, lock up the good wine...Yes there will be some R56 owners coming to the meet. What to serve then?.. Oh, anything with a screw cap or from a plastic bladder.

MGC III

 

Curse those R56 owners and their cheap domestic beverages!

 

Yep, more torque=less shifting-tiny lag, (maybe),=faster lap times.

I can live with that.

 

The links/articles were nice, but....

My nomination for "Best Post in Thread So Far"...

Peace,
Tatt

 

I just think it's funny. SOOOO many people complained that the 2002-2006 Mini Cooper S was way too harsh of a ride. So BMW listens to these complaints, does something about it, and now people are complaining that the ride is too soft.

Do you think there are a bunch of BMW exec's pulling their hair out?

Personally, I think BMW is smart enough to probably offer some sort of option to make the ride stiffer/more responsive. That's really one of the great things about Mini's, is the factory available customization.

 

if the standard or sport suspension was on the test cars. Also, the Sport button wasn't active yet...

Matt

 

You're assuming that these are the same people. Not everyone had a problem with the suspension, in fact there are many MINI owners who are just fine with it. If you want a soft suspension buy a Lincoln. IMO it was probably people in focus groups and "normal" drivers that were complaining so much. Those that really appreciate the MINI and its handling recognize that while not the most comfortable, the suspension in the R53 MINIs is a very good one that helps to provide its "go cart"-like feel. If BMW is trying to sell a lot more MINIs, then it would make perfect sense that they would try to dumb down the MINI to appeal more to the masses. This is accomplished by making changes that carry greater appeal to normal drivers rather than enthusiasts. Afterall, they are competing for potential Honda, Scion, and VW buyers (in other words, plain as vanilla)

 

Yes, they are the same people. I've read a lot of reviews about the 2002-2006 MCS, and many of the reviews mentioned that the suspension was harsh, and at the same time mentioning the go-kart handling. So, now another professional reviewer is saying that the suspension is too soft. While it may not be the exact same person, it is the same group of people (professional journalists)

I know many of the movre avid Mini owners appreciate the suspension and understand the connection between handling and ride quality. However, BMW will pay attention to the majority of Mini owners. If a large number complain about ride quality, it is something they will address. I understand that the MCS is really an affordable sports car, and people should expect sports car issues. But BMW, is trying to grow the brand. Making the Mini more palatable is what they are going to do. Why do you think they are making a Mini Traveler? Because a lot of people said "I really want a Mini, but I wish it was just a little bigger."

[/quote] Afterall, they are competing for potential Honda, Scion, and VW buyers (in other words, plain as vanilla)[/quote]

I would hardly call the Scion Xb or the VW Beetle Vanilla. They are two of the only other interesting cars out there, and direct competition for the Mini.

 

You just compared apples to oranges and its meaningless. CS and 997 are two totally different models and the 997 people are upset the CS is 4 seconds faster around the Ring than the 997 although the 997 is quicker in acceleration and top end. Drop the 3.8l engine into the CS, as some have done, and it embarres the 997S. Who want to drop $110K on a car to have a younger, cheaper sibling whomp on it? Totally different issues.

If you want use Porsche as an example, you will need to compare, say the pre-2004 Boxster S to the 2004/2005 Boxster S which was very similar to what MINI is doing ... just the next generation of the SAME model.

You also wrote ...

I recall the "faster at Nerenburgring" info as well... supposed to be roughly 15-seconds faster than the previous JCW cars (which were also 10-15 seconds faster than the S).

Having driven the ring, I can say first hand that a 15 seconds difference (though worth mentioning) is less than you would imagine on that track. It's a Loooonnng track!!! 5-10 second differences driving the SAME car with the SAME driver are not unheard of... especially if you're not some hotfoot pro racer.

This is also totally meaningless in the context of why factories use the Ring. Sure they use it for testing but don't think for a heartbeat its not for bragging rights. When Walter Rohrl, Hans Stucker and Dave Hill (for the Z06) drive their cars its not for testing. Its for bragging rights and you can take it to the bank, those guys are going to be very close every time. See http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...ID=0&tID=10073 and take a look at all the factory drivers in there.

15 seconds is absolutely HUGE. When Dave HIll, Chief Corvette Engineer ran 7' 59" and 7 56, it just wasnt good enuff for that car because it was the same times as the 997S. In comes Jan Magnussen, F1 driver at just under 7 43. (I believe after Dave Hill).

15 Seconds is HUGE

 

One man's intersting is another man's fugly You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time

 

Amen! For the most part those cars are just for looks and that is exactly what I am talking about. IMO most people buy cars for functionality and/or for looks. With maybe the exception of the Scion TC, Scions are not that fun to drive. And the VW Beetle is a car driven by either teenage girls or aging hipsters. Even the the VW Beetle Turbo isn't seen as a sportscar. Now I will definitely concede that the GTI is a more formidable competitor but the point is that if MINI wants to increase volume it must create products that appeal beyond the enthusiast crowd. Therefore, they will appease the masses by offering more popular and conservative layouts. Why do you think Hondas are so popular? They have a plain, functional, and non-offensive design that is made to appeal to the masses. I just hope that BMW doesn't get too greedy and eventually turn MINI into a glorified Civic or Corolla...

But I think we are both saying the same thing, Working4an07. But that is why some current Miniacs are concerned about the 07. As I mentioned before in this thread, I have no doubt the 07 will be a great car. But will it slowly start loosing some of its MINIness as it evolves and the model line is expanded to create more sales and profits? I think its a legitimate question to consider as sports cars generally don't sell in high volumes, but soft, big, and comfortable certainly does...

 

I agree with your reasoned response. After all it's still a MINI. I'll reserve my judgment until I can see for my self.

Auto writers are somewhat like movie critics. Ever go to a movie that has had bad reviews only to discover that you loved it & it spoke to your soul? Ever go to a movie with rave reviews only to leave shaking your head wondering how you can get that 2 hours of your life back? Same goes for car magazine reviews. Take em with a grain of salt.

 

of the article in question...right click here to save to your PC...it's ~1MB.

 

They aren't the same people, you've identified at least two separate groups in your post. The avid owners, who don't complain about the harsh suspension and would complain about a soft one, and the "majority" owners, who would argue opposite points. Professional journalists fall into neither (well, except Brock Yates, et al.).

Interesting on the outside, vanilla on the inside. And I'm not talking interiors.

 

I think we need to be aware that the Mini, by no definition of the term, is a sports car. A sports GT maybe, but NOT a sports car.

 

Had a chance to check the article this AM. Ignoring for a moment that I don't really like Automobile as a magazine (I'm not in their target demo, frankly), there are some things to consider.

1. It's a single-page thumbnail, based on the preview cars that were available at the press preview at the Zandvoort track in Amsterdam. I'm sure we've all seen the videos. There's a bigger article in this month's MC2. That article mentions less need to downshift, and was rather positive about performance and handling. The author even said he left DSC enabled, but it never kicked in.
2. That makes it an 07 MCS, with the switchable "sport" handling disabled, and based on the photos I've seen from that preview, it looks like they had the 17-inch "performance" runflats. (S-lites w/funky tread) All articles have commented on the softer ride, which from my perspective is a Good Thing. On smooth asphalt, my wife's '04 MC w/runflats & sport package is OK, but it's pretty harsh on broken or rough pavement. But many people love a harsh ride as it's evidence they're in a sporty car and not in a family car.
3. The article isn't that negative. The increased performance is noted. Turbo lag wasn't mentioned, FWIW.

I think the problem wasn't so much that he didn't like it, but that he was hoping for more.

The article also featured the new speedo/radio as a "cool feature" with the back-handed comment, "At Least It's Not iDrive".

-W-

BTW -- prduction on the 2007 started today. US Configurator still not due until December, last I read.

 

This has been discussed countless times. While I would agree with you, others will challenge this as the definition of "sports cars" becomes more hazy. Not sure its a Grand Touring car either. GT implies more luxary touring, certainly not the harsh ride of a MINI.

Sports cars are traditionally, 2 seater roadsters but that definition is changing ... some consider a Mustang a sports car

 

Maybe some of you don't have a "sports car" but I certainly do

 

I think the R56 will be an excellent vehicle but there is no doubt in my mind that BMW wants to increase its appeal to a wider market demographic that would not have otherwise considered the current model due to the harsh ride aspect and darty handling demeanor.

All I can say is this: I will reserve judgement until I can get to test drive the car sometime next year and I sincerely hope that MINI is not attempting to re-create a "cheekier" version of the VW GTI. MINIs have certain qualities that if you take them away in the name of refinement, the car inevitably will become another "hot hatch" job in the automotive landscape. The success of MINI is clearly the anti-thesis of the "me too" way of thinking so prevalent in the auto industry today.

 

I do too, it's my Miata. Now my MINI is my Hot Hatch....aka, POCKET ROCKET.

 

My point is that you stated that the Tritec was a BMW-Mercedes joint venture. It was not. Get your facts straight before posting.

 

I still think the R53/R56 will be the same as the Z3/Z4 discussion. The Z4 is faster and more refined than the Z3. The same things they are saying about the R56 compared to the R53. Yet, in the same Automobile magazine we are discussing. BMW is said to be looking to make a Z2 because the Z4 isn't doing as well. A quote from the magazine.
So will we be seeing something like this about the R53 in a few years?

My wife had a Z3 and before she purchased it we test drove a Z4. If the changeover from the R53 to the R56 affects the fun factor as it did with the Z3 to the Z4. I'll gladly pass on to new R56. That doesn't make it a bad car. Just not a car I would want. It's all about personal choice.

 

I can remember when the Porsche 356 was replaced by the 911,almost the same arguments about the newer version.Is old always better? Just my two cents.Q

 

LOL, just from the Pics/Posts I've seen ("over the years") regarding Sid's ride, that's likely the truth.

As for me, as long as my friends think I bought a sports car .... (whatever, I happen to like it a whole bunch)...

This thread is starting to smell weird.... If the "critics" didn't show up to your play, wouldn't you be mad?

Chows - 15 seconds is a lot ~

DW ~ That was hilarious about iDrive too - I bet you're intuition is right about "hoping for more",

Tatt