Exactly. I see DSC this way...

Yes, it (ASC actually) may interfere sometimes when you are deliberately trying to do something out of the ordinary... so you learn to turn it off before doing those things (I do).

HOWEVER,

DSC will step in and help you when you didn't intend for something to happen. And for that reason alone, it's definitely worth having and definitely worth keeping enabled at all times for "normal" driving.

It doesn't matter how good of a driver you are. DSC is there to help with the unexpected.

 

Yep. I DIDN'T expect that big pickup truck to appear on the outside of my blind corner precisely when I incorrectly DIDN'T think I was going in too hot (even though I've driven it many times before) precisely when I DIDN'T expect to yell "OH *****!"... and if DSC had been turned off (or nonexistent) then, I would have left a big unexpected Cool Blue stripe down the side of his red F250 and a big unexpected brown stripe in my drawers and my insurance premiums would have started coming with an unexpected comma included which would have led to unexpected marrital strife.

DSC rox.

 

And as a prize, you get a free shipment of laundry detergent!

Matt

 

I only have liability on my insurance. No collision. I've never ran into anybody.

 

I would highly recommend the DSC. I have had it on both of my MCSs. It only takes one time when it saves your bacon to pay for itself. Others mentioned it earlier, DSC will more than pay for itself at trade-in or re-sale time. The federal nannies have made it mandatory for all new cars to have it installed by 2012.

I think that most have been confusing the traction control function with the DSC. When you are spinning your wheels on slippery pavement, or when trying to make a quick start, you are activating the traction control. The DSC responds to yaw movements, ie: a slide or spin where the rear of the car is not following the front. Everyone that buys a MCS in the USA will be getting traction control whether or not you order the DSC, as it is standard equipment.

As Dr Obnxs pointed out, the DSC can do things that no, and I mean NO, driver can accomplish while a car is sliding or spinning. I know that it has paid for itself in both of my MCSs.

I would also highly recommend the LSD. When combined with the DSC the threshold of allowable wheel spin is increased so that the DSC is much less intrusive than without the LSD. That is one of the biggest differences between my two MCSs and the only reason that I upgraded from my 2002 to a 2006. The LSD does it's thing on dry, wet, snow, or ice coverd pavement. It divides the torque between the drive wheels, making it that much more unlikely that you will spin a wheel. Less wheel spin equals less interference from the traction control.

For all of you that think that the LSD is just for racing are missing the boat. The LSD is useful in everyday driving situations. Every time you try to accelerate while making a tight corner the LSD helps to prevent the inside tire from spinnning. Every time you are driving in less than ideal traction the LSD helps to distribute the torque to both drive wheels and reduces the chance of wheel spin. It is as much of a safety device as it is a performance device. Well worth the cost.

JOHO

 

Bilbo-Baggins .. This is not only one very well written summary, it's also very persuasive. What a nice bit of writing .. Well thought out. After reading this I find myself regretting not having added Limited Slip Differential to my order.

 

And I've never been struck by lightning... but that doesn't mean it will never happen. Each and every time behind the wheel is a completely independent event. Just because something didn't happen to you in the past does not mean it will never happen. To think so is simply foolish.

 

I did not get the DSC. I dislike gadgets that suddenly intrude themselves and try to usurp the car's control. I feel confident in my ability to control the car in all circumstances, and my judgment to avoid situations where DSC might snap into action. If the car were to be driven much by my wife I would have ordered the DSC. She is not well trained in car handling, her attention tends to drift, and she may not notice possible hazards. DSC is a great feature for her and for other drivers who are likely to need help in an emergency situation.

I ordered cloth. I prefer the feel of cloth, and especially, the way it helps to keep the driver from moving about in response to lateral g forces. DOn't forget to use Scotch Guard or a similal product.

I ordered the Xenon headlights. All I can tell is that they provide very good visibility. I assume the washer feature works well. We have had some significant rain recently and my headlights are clean and clear.

I hope you enjoy your new car however it is equipped,

Joe

 

If one doesn't possess the skills to drive safely they should go to school & learn the skills needed for car control. If you don't possess the skill set to control your car then yes you should have Electro Nanny driving for you.

As far as lightning striking. You may want to try a tin foil hat.

 

I'm really glad you guy's drive always with 100% knowledge of what's ahead, what the other drivers are going to do it must be a great feeling. You know F1 could use you, give Frank Williams a call ASAP.

 

Not trying to pick a fight here...
but even if you go to school and learn how to drive, there will be times when an electro nanny is just simply better than you. It reacts much faster than anyone of us can. Of course, it's not a perfect system, so it will sometimes come in at the wrong time. Generally, however, (as most others have said) it will pay for itself if it save your rear once.
I always leave my DSC on, even when I am driving spiritedly. DSC should stay on as long as you're on public roads. You're not racing against the clock on public roads.
and wouldn't it feel stupid to cause an accident with your DSC off??? probably a lot of people have, but are too ashamed to post it online.
I've found that the R56's DSC to be less intrusive than my R53... but maybe it's just that the tires are new, or maybe because I am still breaking in the engine~

 

I'm curious. How do you deal with the unexpected, and aren't you a bit concerned that the electronic systems can do things that no human ever could? Even the best driver ever can't just tap the brakes for one wheel.

Matt

ps, do you drive with insurance? Or are you skilled enough to avoid all accidents too?

While DSC isn't mandated yet, it's on it's way in. At least when that happens all these debates about if it should be ordered will go away, to be replaced with longing for the good old days when cars didn't come with it, or arguing over how it's implemented. Ahhh, progress!

 

Arguing against DSC is like...
Why use lightbulbs when you can just use a torch?
Why use a calculator when you can use your brain?
Why have stereos play a song for you when you can sing it yourself?

 

From a summary in CNNMoney from 2003. http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/25/pf/a..._esc/index.htm

"Toyota found that electronic stability control reduced single-vehicle crashes in Japan by a remarkable 35 percent and head-on crashes by 30 percent. And in the European study, Mercedes-Benz, whose lineup has sported ESC as a standard feature since 1999, reported a 29 percent drop in single-vehicle accidents; crashes of all types fell 15 percent."

From http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0..._control2.html

"The NHTSA study found a 35 percent reduction in single-vehicle crash risk for cars and a 67 percent reduction for SUVs. Fatal single-vehicle crashes were reduced about 30 percent (cars) and 63 percent (SUVs). "

Here's an excellent article on the Bosch DSC system from the horses mouth...
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd.../05-0471-O.pdf

One of the points that they make here is that lots of really bad accidents are caused by loss of control at critical times (think lane-change, black ice on a freeway at speed, etc...) This is what DSC attacs. Also, I found it interesting to learm that while 2% of all accidents are roll-overs, that this type of crash accounts for about 33% of accident fatalities. It also points out (for those Anti-DSC people who are about to claim that's all SUVs with firestone tires), they do point out that most roll-overs are caused by tripping the car while in a slide, either with something like a curb or debris, or burying some wheels in soft dirt.

Actually, this was just a surface look at statistics on the issue. It's anticipated that ESC products (this is the generic term, DSC is a BMW/Bosch trade mark) will reduct traffic fatalities significantly. Now, I've been a fan of these systems all along, but I had no idea just how effective they are. For those of you that are on the fence, or would just like to learn more, the three links above will shed some light. If you want to do some more digging on your own, try searching (not here, on the Internet) on Electronic Stability Control Accident Statistics.... You'll get tons of hits.

Matt

ps, I'm sure there will be some that think "this doesn't apply to me, as I'm a much better driver than those in the general population." While this may have some truth to it, it's not enough for me to pass on the system. If the system does an average benefit of a 30% decrease in fatal car accidets, and you only get 1/3rd of the benefit from driving skill (you can't get it to zero, because no human can do everything that these systems can do as fast as they can do it) then we're talking a $500 cost for a 10% reduction in the change that you will die driving your car. Remember that this is over the life of the car, so you're "anual DSC premium) is somewhere between $50 and $100 per year. Compare that to your auto insurance..... Would you bump your premium by $50-$100 a year to reduce your accident chance? FWIW, my wife and I pay ~$1800 a year for insuring 3 cars, with some higher valuations on them (like my Mustang, under stated value). So for me, the effective "insurance rate increase" would be on the order of 10%. And this isn't counting the fact that you could increase your deductable to offset some costs, as there's less change of an accident overall.

 

I have never won the lottery jackpot. I will continue not to win.
I know it is a false analogy. But all the analogies on this thread are false. Even yours.
I carry only liability because the car I am driving right now is only $2500. If the accident is my fault I will lose $2500. When I get my MINI, I will have the full coverage.

 

Somewhere I read that a large majority of drivers believe that they have greater than average driving skills.

Some MINI drivers have more skill than F1 drivers, faster reaction times than a computer, and can leap tall buildings with a single bound.

Then there is the Achilles lesson about hubris -- arrogance comes before a fall.

I don't know whether the MINI implementation of DSC was done well, or not. If it was, I doubt there are many drivers in the world who would not be safer with it.

 

Yep I would feel stupid I would feel stupid if I caused a wreck. Do cars with DSC not wreck? I bet they do. IMO many folks drive hotter than they should with the mistaken belief that Electro Nanny will save them. Can't break the laws of physics, even with fancy wires, circuits & accelerometers.

I drive according to conditions & traffic laws when I drive. My lust for speed is slaked at the race track. Even there, I drive to the conditions. I don't want DSC on my car & I don't have it & I'm happy with my choice. As are the many folks that have DSC on their cars happy with their choice. All about choices & I choose not to have it.

When I buy my R56 I will reevaluate how I feel about DSC. I hope the system evolves into a better one than what was offered on my R53.

In the meantime I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

Yeah, the cloth is good to keep you centered during lateral force excursions. Years ago, before most people wore seatbelts I used seatbelts for the reason you're describing (my seats were vinyl, flat, and slippery). The seatbelts kept me from moving about in response to lateral g forces. I'm curious though, do you not wear a seatbelt? Normally I wouldn't ask that question but it seems to me that anyone who would not purchase DSC (lauded by virtually all car safety organizations as the best safety device since the seatbelt), especially a DSC that's defeatable for sport driving purposes, would probably feel confident enough to decide not to wear a seatbelt either.

Bosch Stability Control Video:

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vi...e3ce105.689691

 

I have DSC...but i never use it. It is always the first switch i hit after i crank up the engine. I could see its use if you live in an area with alot of rain or snow, but im now living in Las Vegas and the roads are dry about 99% of the time. So in my case it is normally turned off. However...it is always there if i do want it. If i had the chance to do it again, i would pass on it and keep the LSD.

 

Wow

 

Dr Obnxs , that's an extremely well written post. It's pretty interesting how these manufacturers do these tests too~ Very nicely done~
So now I know that if I turn DSC off, I am 30% more likely to get in an accident and 10% more likely to die... lol~ nice to know~

 

I'm getting DCS in my MINI and have a version of it in my wife's car. The reason I think it's very important is because you can't control how other people drive. When driving on a highway with other cars all around, I may feel in control of what I'm doing but when some bozo near me drops their latte in their lap and loses control, I want as much help as possible trying to avoid that knucklehead.
Now when I'm on a nice twisty with no one around, that may be a great time to turn it off, but stuff happens so most of the time it'll stay on.

 

and read the paper by the guys from Bosch (It's only 9 pages). There's some stuff on how to couple 4WD systems into this (more complicated than I'd imagined), but there are graphs showing slip angle vs time for some menuvers. What's interesting to note is the individual brake intensities over time for some minuvers. There's one what jabs the outside front wheel hard as the car approaches loss of traction, then that brake force drops to zero, and the inside front is applied for the duration of the menuver as part of the control strategy.

If after reading the Bosch article, and one still thinks that they shouldn't get DSC systems, then I'd have to assume the reader was clueless.

Matt

 

No, my analogy was simply trying to point out that independent events from the past have no bearing on each other. For that purpose, the analogy worked.Ahh... so the statement you made had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The reasons for you only carrying liability were not due to overconfidence. Way to go, you fooled some people, including me. Actually, unless that twisty road is one-way traffic and you also have confirmation there is nothing unexpected in the roadway (gee... sounds familiar... like a racetrack?), you might want to keep it on anyhow.

 

Hmmm... Like my mysterious red F250 that appeared from around that blind twisty where it wasn't supposed to be cause, well, nobody EVER drives on that road...