Brilliant work Sean! I think I know what my weekend looks like now I can't thank you enough for blazing this trail for me and providing the great information.

 

Let me throw something out for you smart gents to consider:

We ought to come up with a way to monitor our IATs to compare the performance of the Forge R56 and R60 intercoolers on the R60. There are many variables (ambient temps, driving conditions, intake setups, what we use to measure, etc.), but if we could find a way to eliminate/mitigate those variables, I think it would be an interesting experiment. (Mostly I'm just afraid that my FMIC isn't doing diddly compared to the setups you guys are running/going to run.)

For intake setups, we might all try running the stock air box, for example. We could all use the UltraGauge or ScanGauge to measure IATs. We could standardize driving conditions by saying, for example, "five hard 0-60 pulls from a dead stop on a flat surface with no A/C running," etc.

For ambient temp, I'm sure we can figure out some formula to show the rate of cooling for each FMIC?

Not sure if this would work, but just tossing it out there.

 

good idea

my cms all4 will show the OAT in the tach by pressing the button on the end of the turnsignal stalk

having the IAT and OAT after some pulls might be a good start

scott

 

It would be very interesting.

So we would need 3 volunteers. Stock, R56 FMIC and well.. the only dude I know of who has a R60 forge FMIC in their car.. :cough: :cough:

 

Haha! Both Christian and I will have this done, but I'm game to do the experiments.

I have 3 Scangauge 2s - one of which is their new "beta" Mini 2011+ model. I wrote them about the XGauge codes and they sent it out to me with the Mini stuff loaded on it. Long story short, the new one reads a bit differently on values than the old one. I'll use two in testing to see how much of a difference (if any) is on the IATs.

I wish this was as easy as my Gen 1 -- just put a temp probe in the pre/post IC tube (or in my case the bungs are already there on the DFIC), but this shouldn't be too hard.

I'll probably post all sorts of conditional data - highway. Stop/go, etc.

The only problem is that I now have a race tune (not the normal one), so I'm not sure just how advanced the timing is. Might skew the results. If Christian also does this, it would even out the data plots.

 

Oh, and to make your shopping trip easier for anyone who wants to duplicate my mounting setup (okay, I know it's only one of you...):

2 x 3" All-Thread 5/16" Hex Bolts
2 x 5/16" Washer Nuts
4 x 5/16" Stainless Nuts
2 x 5/16" Stainless Washers

And then on the bottom, just did this today:

1 x 8" All-Thread (Good Luck) or 8" - 1/4" Carriage Bolt (with last 1.5" threaded)
2 x 1/4" Washer Nuts

That's for the bottom tab on the FMIC - it goes straight through the reinforced plastic area under the FMIC. Use a washer nut on either side of that plastic, and it has a third support point (which is why we use 2 opposing nuts instead of one). Here's a fun keyboard drawing of that...

()||()------------------||[]
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ^ Bolt Head
^ .. ^ . Washer Nuts . . ^ IC Tab
. .^ Plastic Divider (Drill 1/4" Hole)

 

I don't mind doing some testing, but I don't have a scan gauge..:( Let me get installed first, then we can go from there. I don't have the tune yet, that will come after installation.. so if you guys want any pre-tune data points, let me know.

 

I'd highly recommend getting one now that you're modding. If you want a good place to pick one up for $110-120, there is a national chain that has lots of discount codes. I won't put it here, but you can PM me (or just look on the web, it's one of the big 3 auto parts stores with a $40/50 off $150).

 

Final piece is securing the bottom - this could work for any IC provided you have a tab (or weld one on). This will provide an additional aspect of support in the thick plastic:

I used a 1ft piece of all-thread 1/4", cut down to around 9". After that, all stainless pieces: 4 x 1/4" locknuts, 4 x 1/4" washers (two need to be cut as seen), 4 x 1/4" nuts.

 

Very timely discussion. The UltraGauge is not reading codes on my 2012 R60. I don't know if it is the changes to the ECU or what, but it is telling me there is no code even though my CEL is clearly lit.

I would buy a ScanGauge II if I knew for sure it would read the codes.

So far, all I've got is the information available from the onboard computer, which presents the code in a language I don't understand.

 

I can tell you with 99% certainty that the SG2 will read anything on the 2012 as the only ECU change was the JTAG port (which changed the flashing method) as far as I know. The OBD2 port write restriction is the same for both, and the read is the same.

So, I'd really recommend the SG2. It's been able to read any/all codes for me. Worst case, you can return it and get an Actron!

 

Good to know. What do you suspect is the problem with the UltraGauge, then? They said they haven't had anyone else complain about it being unable to read codes. I assumed it was due to the changes to post-02/2012 ECUs which require different tuning than any other N18 engines.

As far as ECUs go, there is the N14 ECU, the pre-02/2012 N18 ECU, and the post-02/2012 ECU, each with different challenges. It's definitely becoming a little frustrating.

 

Just an FYI/update:

On a warm engine (220EOT/212WT) - Running 4 pulls 0-60-0 back to back resulted in the IAT being 2 degrees higher than the ambient (57AAT/59IAT)... I think I'm in love.

Makes the giant pain kind of worth it, I guess!

 

This is great motivation. I started mine today, will finish tomorrow. I was able to make the cuts with the crash bumper on, but I couldn't angle the intercooler in, so I had to pull it anyway.

 

Do you mean to day that the IAT never moved from 2 degrees above ambient? Mine spikes 8-10 degrees above ambient on hard accelerations, but quickly comes back down. If your IAT never moved from 2 degrees above ambient during all those pulls, that is one hell of an efficient intercooler and I am sad.

 

Woohoo - Glad to see it's coming along for you! It seems a lot more daunting to take the crash bar off than it actually is.

And then you start worrying about only having a half-dozen bolts holding it to the frame.....

 

Hujan, you're going to be pissed then. I *just* got back from datalogging for some minor tune issues, and I was actually 2-4 degrees under ambient due to wind chill on the highway(or whatever you'd want to call it). At a standstill, it's right @ ambient. Even 10 minutes sitting @ Quicktrip (did that just to test heatsoak).

But I understand what you're asking! Here's thew answer to that:

My stock would go 8-10 degrees higher when I pegged the throttle, then come back down slowly after decel. I can now stand on the pedal and do 6.5k pulls and not exceed +2 ambient at any time. No kidding. I'm actually really impressed - too much work, though.

Edit: I know this sounds pretty nuts - I'm going to make a video just to prove it. Takes all the mystery out of it, anyway. I was making passes (8-10 hard ones) to video a strange blow-off issue, so I have all that on video, but I don't have the SG2 in view. I'll see if I can still get some footage for you tonight with my phone!

 

Mine shows 2 degrees under ambient when cruising as well, though I must admit, this seems technically impossible. Wind cannot affect the absolute temperature, only the rate at which heat loss can occur. For example, if the absolute ambient temperature is 34 degrees but 26 with wind chill, a bucket of water will not freeze. (However, it will get to 34 degrees a lot faster because of the wind.) Unless there's something I'm missing, I don't see how an intercooler can ever bring the temperatures below ambient . . . ? But I don't doubt that's what your gauge is showing since mine is showing similar.

Still, it's impressive that the intercooler is not heat soaking even at standstill. My IAT start to creep up at traffic lights, but quickly drop back down when I get moving. Standing for 10 minutes would almost certainly see the temperatures creep up above ambient, though.

Man, that is crazy. I would say that the R60 version is far more efficient (on an R60) than a R56 version based on what you're reporting. I'm sure the air diverter will help, but I doubt it will match that efficiency even with the diverter.

I definitely believe you and am happy to see your efforts rewarded handedly. Glad that you had a pay off because you definitely deserve it!

I'm really hoping the air diverter brings my responsiveness more in line with yours. Any difference at that point I'll just have to kill with a water/meth kit.

 

I see what you're getting at with the temp - perhaps it's just the OBD2 sensor for IAT freaking out or being out-of-whack by a few degrees.

Strangely, I can't get it to heatsoak unless I run it hard and then turn it off for half an hour. Will end up soaking from the engine/radiator heat. Within 15 seconds after starting it up, it's back. It's just a huge cubic area we're dealing with - I figured this before going forward with this IC to begin with. Here's the breakdown on Forge's ICs:

Stock IC: 22" x 3.375" x 2.5" = 185.625 cubic inches

R56 FMIC: (Lower Step = 3" x 3" x 20.8") = 187.2" + (Higher Step = 5" x 1.5" x 20.8") = 156.00"
Total R56 FMIC = 343.2 cubic inches

R60 FMIC: 6" x 5" x 20.5 = 615 cubic inches

You can see it's almost twice the cubic inches of the R56 FMIC and has more usable rows directly ventilated after my bumper modification. Kind of explains the results!

 

It could be lower than ambient by the same general method an AC works-- that intake air is pressurized in the IC during heat transfer. I'm guessing it depressurizes slightly coming out the other side. Just a guess/theory.... in any case good stuff

 

Yeah, I'd say that explains it! Really did not realize there was that much of a disparity between the two in terms of cubic area.

Now you've got me starting to wonder whether to (1) stick with the current setup and continue with my air diverter project, or (2) sell the R56 intercooler and either have one custom made or go with the Tyrol Sport.

The shop that did my custom 2.75" exhaust also builds intercoolers. They have a custom twin-turbo kit for the 370z that is amazingly awesome. They fabricated the manifolds, the intercooler, the piping, everything. It's really, really neat and puts down >500 hp. I wonder what they might be able to come up with for my car? If I could get it done for ~$1,000, it might be worth it.

 

All done! Thanks so much Sean for all the tips, pics and write up on this. Couldn't have done it otherwise!

 

Awesome! Pics?

 

Also, I just wasted 10 minutes video-ing the SG2 with the iPhone camera tonight. It's just one big red blur... Grr...

Ambient was 42, driving at 75 for 45 minutes, IAT was 40. On hard pull from M3 or M4, IATs never rose above 42. From dead stop at a light for 2 minutes (IAT 42) to flooring it, IAT stayed at 42 and dipped to 40 after 3 seconds.

 

Man, I don't know what's wrong with me, but I didn't take any more pics after the one with it all broken down. I can tell you that it looks exactly like yours. I broke one bolt mounting it to the bumper (over tightened) and my cut is slightly wobbly from doing it while the bumper was still mounted. Other than that, it came out really good. I added some loctite to the bolts, repainted the bumper, got it all mounted back, and voila, good as new. I'll get a scan gauge and do some temp checks too. I'm interested to see if I get similar results.