D Stock GS class
#26
09-18-2005 | 10:00 PM
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From: Missouri
#27
09-19-2005 | 04:48 AM
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From: West Chester, PA
Protest the Cooper S move to D Stock?
Hi all, my name is Joe McCormick. I work for Otto's MINI and Tony Savini drove my car to a third place finish in Topeka at his his first Nationals! The reason for this post is to see about getting some support for a petition campaign to keep the Cooper S in G Stock and go with the make the class faster theory. With the GTS moving down to G why not bring some of the slower D stock cars into G to see if we can open the field up. Sentra Spec V and maybe even the Acura Type R what's the difference if we're going to run against it in D stock? It just seems a little strange to me to move half of a class up rather than other models into a class. Anyone else think that this makes sense? By the way congrats to all who made the trip to Topeka, trophies or not, you can't win if you're not there! Joe
PS. Since Mark Chiles has moved to Hershey, PA, and Mr. Garfield is from DC Region, might it be possible for a rematch at one of Philly Region's Ripken events? I think it'd be a great showing with Philly Region members Jeff Jacobs, Tony Savini, and Jeff MacRae battling Chiles and Garfield for a grudge match honors...
PS. Since Mark Chiles has moved to Hershey, PA, and Mr. Garfield is from DC Region, might it be possible for a rematch at one of Philly Region's Ripken events? I think it'd be a great showing with Philly Region members Jeff Jacobs, Tony Savini, and Jeff MacRae battling Chiles and Garfield for a grudge match honors...
#28
09-19-2005 | 10:20 AM
Coordinator :: Minis Under the Arches (Oct 25-28)
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Salt Lake City
Originally Posted by BGarfield
Craig is referring to the only thing you CAN compare, Friday's runs. On Thursday, D Stock ran in the driving rain whereas G Stock ran in drying conditions.
In other words, to compare the two classes on any day other than Friday is pointless. Just look at the lower line of times, not the upper or the total.
Brian
In other words, to compare the two classes on any day other than Friday is pointless. Just look at the lower line of times, not the upper or the total.
Brian
#29
09-19-2005 | 10:33 AM
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From: Missouri
Originally Posted by joesellsmini
Hi all, my name is Joe McCormick. I work for Otto's MINI and Tony Savini drove my car to a third place finish in Topeka at his his first Nationals! The reason for this post is to see about getting some support for a petition campaign to keep the Cooper S in G Stock and go with the make the class faster theory. With the GTS moving down to G why not bring some of the slower D stock cars into G to see if we can open the field up. Sentra Spec V and maybe even the Acura Type R what's the difference if we're going to run against it in D stock? It just seems a little strange to me to move half of a class up rather than other models into a class. Anyone else think that this makes sense? By the way congrats to all who made the trip to Topeka, trophies or not, you can't win if you're not there! Joe
PS. Since Mark Chiles has moved to Hershey, PA, and Mr. Garfield is from DC Region, might it be possible for a rematch at one of Philly Region's Ripken events? I think it'd be a great showing with Philly Region members Jeff Jacobs, Tony Savini, and Jeff MacRae battling Chiles and Garfield for a grudge match honors...
PS. Since Mark Chiles has moved to Hershey, PA, and Mr. Garfield is from DC Region, might it be possible for a rematch at one of Philly Region's Ripken events? I think it'd be a great showing with Philly Region members Jeff Jacobs, Tony Savini, and Jeff MacRae battling Chiles and Garfield for a grudge match honors...
#30
09-19-2005 | 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by OasisT
Yep, Thats what I meant. I know at the town hall meeting they said they were going to bump us to DS, but, now that the results have shown that we belong in GS, I'm hoping they stick to their plan of making GS quicker, instead of going back to the old GS with Celica's as the only car to have.
However, the SEB's rationale has changed because of the factory-JCW. Let's assume that the '06 JCW is a good D/S car. If they leave the '05 MCS in G/S, and the base MC in H/S, you then have three classes that a Mini could win frequently, if not dominate. The SEB stated very clearly at the town meeting that they don't want a car that "looks like the same car" winning in three stock classes. I don't know how or why that constraint developed, but it's not the first time I've heard that statement. With the current SEB mindset, the '05 MCS becomes the sacrificial lamb for the sake of the JCW, and they both end up in D/S.
Assuming that the SEB won't budge from this "three class" constraint, the more effective suggestion might be the following:
Due the limited run of factory-based supercharged JCW MCS (only one model year) and the significantly higher cost ($7,200 premium when the mandatory Sport pkg is included), leave the JCW in ASP (both factory and dealer-installed), and leave the '05 & '06 regular MCS in G/S, thus avoiding disruption to a class that was very healthy in '05, would continue to prosper in '06.
Just my .02.......
Jim Z
#32
09-20-2005 | 04:03 PM
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From: Philadelphia
Moving the Cooper S (of any year) to DS at this point is simply a mistake. Others have already gone over the numbers showing the Cooper S doesn't keep up with the 330ci, ITR, or AWD VWs. On top of that, you have the fact that taking the Cooper S out of GS leaves the class to be dominated, again, by a car that isn't even made any more. Further, at least Mini supports the sport with contigency, even if that contingency isn't managed through SCCA. If the issue about the JCW package being factory is the deciding factor, I think most would vote for leaving it on the exclusion list rather than moving all 05+ MCS to DS.
Jeff Jacobs
Jeff Jacobs
#33
09-20-2005 | 06:10 PM
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From: West Chester, PA
Hey Jeff, Thanks for joining in! Thanks for posting on PhillyMINI as well! I've spoken to our MINI field rep who is a great guy. He's going to try and get me a phone call to some of the MINI higher ups. I agree, can the JCW classification if it means moving the GS cars to DS. One point that has been made though is that even at $30k for an '06 factory JCW, it's still on the cheap side of DS! Except for the ITR, the R32's aren't cheap and a 330ci? Big bucks. Isn't there a rule on how many units need to be produced? I thought that that was the issue with the MazdaSpeed Miata... Joe
#34
09-20-2005 | 09:05 PM
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From: Missouri
#35
09-21-2005 | 01:50 PM
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From: Mt. Airy, MD USA
Originally Posted by joesellsmini
PS. Since Mark Chiles has moved to Hershey, PA, and Mr. Garfield is from DC Region, might it be possible for a rematch at one of Philly Region's Ripken events? I think it'd be a great showing with Philly Region members Jeff Jacobs, Tony Savini, and Jeff MacRae battling Chiles and Garfield for a grudge match honors...
It's not likely my MINI will be around after that...
Brian
#36
09-21-2005 | 01:56 PM
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From: Missouri
Originally Posted by BGarfield
We already agreed to this at Nationals (Mark, Tony, and I). The D.C. Region will do it's last event for the season on October 9th...on the A Lot !! (National Tour and Pros done there). 'Twould be a ton of fun!
It's not likely my MINI will be around after that...
Brian
It's not likely my MINI will be around after that...
Brian
#37
09-22-2005 | 09:33 AM
Coordinator :: Minis Under the Arches (Oct 25-28)
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Salt Lake City
#38
09-22-2005 | 10:50 AM
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From: Missouri
Originally Posted by MattMan
From the looks of things, it might not be good for us 05 and 06 Mini's. I bet you'll be seeing a lot of Mini's in STX next year.
Does anyone know when the SEB will make their decision?
Does anyone know when the SEB will make their decision?
#39
09-22-2005 | 03:46 PM
Coordinator :: Minis Under the Arches (Oct 25-28)
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Salt Lake City
Originally Posted by OasisT
What if they put the JCW in STX? Then us 05 MCS owners are REALLY screwed. If the 05/06 are listed on different lines, then the 05 owners are even screwed for DSP since we won't be able to update/backdate. The mis-statement of making GS quicker for 06 may cost us MCS owners a ton of money if they go the other direction and make the out of production Celica the top dog once again in GS.
#40
09-23-2005 | 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OasisT
Man, wish I could make the trip up to join in on the fun. Maybe I'll divert my vacation to DC and swing by for a little Sunday fun while I'm there?
#41
09-25-2005 | 05:39 PM
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Not being the most popular person/poster here(not a Mini owner and think that the GS classing was a mistake for the 05 and up S cars.)
But...
We got some very interesting data at our sunny event that happened on asphalt today.
Ron Bauer(SEB) jumps in a MiniS...
What I consider to be the top DS package/driver right now(Glen Hernandez/330) races against him in identical conditions.
Everyone on good tires.
Glen 56.6xxx/Ron 57.1xx.
Some would say: "See! the MiniS can't run with DS".
Or: "Just a local event/who cares".
I say it does matter because those 2 are pretty good drivers that I have been racing against for quite a few years and I also say:
"Put some rear double adjustables on that Mini(on SA's now) and give Ron some more seat time and you might have a good DS race there."
I don't understand why people think the non JCW package cars have "no chance" in DS. Look at what Chiles did at the recent tour before Nats.
Data from asphalt is more important than second day nats at Forbes imo when looking at future classing cause of new-nat-site.
Is the JCW car going to be faster? Sure...on some but not all courses. Is it going to be slower than a base car + LSD? I doubt it depending on tire fitment.
Does the SEB want to speed up GS?
Evidently so.
Does the MiniS have to be included in that goal.
Nope.
Will the 05 and up MCS continue to dominate GS if they leave it in GS?
Yup.
SO many other car moves hinge on the MCS...kinda weird.
I still might end up in one for next year and think that I can do ok in DS if I go that route.
GlenH is a GREAT measuring stick(superfast 90%+ of the time) to base travel plans on if the cars end up in DS.
FM(still hate the interior design though)
But...
We got some very interesting data at our sunny event that happened on asphalt today.
Ron Bauer(SEB) jumps in a MiniS...
What I consider to be the top DS package/driver right now(Glen Hernandez/330) races against him in identical conditions.
Everyone on good tires.
Glen 56.6xxx/Ron 57.1xx.
Some would say: "See! the MiniS can't run with DS".
Or: "Just a local event/who cares".
I say it does matter because those 2 are pretty good drivers that I have been racing against for quite a few years and I also say:
"Put some rear double adjustables on that Mini(on SA's now) and give Ron some more seat time and you might have a good DS race there."
I don't understand why people think the non JCW package cars have "no chance" in DS. Look at what Chiles did at the recent tour before Nats.
Data from asphalt is more important than second day nats at Forbes imo when looking at future classing cause of new-nat-site.
Is the JCW car going to be faster? Sure...on some but not all courses. Is it going to be slower than a base car + LSD? I doubt it depending on tire fitment.
Does the SEB want to speed up GS?
Evidently so.
Does the MiniS have to be included in that goal.
Nope.
Will the 05 and up MCS continue to dominate GS if they leave it in GS?
Yup.
SO many other car moves hinge on the MCS...kinda weird.
I still might end up in one for next year and think that I can do ok in DS if I go that route.
GlenH is a GREAT measuring stick(superfast 90%+ of the time) to base travel plans on if the cars end up in DS.
FM(still hate the interior design though)
#42
09-25-2005 | 10:28 PM
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From: Missouri
Originally Posted by Fastmike
Not being the most popular person/poster here(not a Mini owner and think that the GS classing was a mistake for the 05 and up S cars.)
But...
We got some very interesting data at our sunny event that happened on asphalt today.
Ron Bauer(SEB) jumps in a MiniS...
What I consider to be the top DS package/driver right now(Glen Hernandez/330) races against him in identical conditions.
Everyone on good tires.
Glen 56.6xxx/Ron 57.1xx.
Some would say: "See! the MiniS can't run with DS".
Or: "Just a local event/who cares".
I say it does matter because those 2 are pretty good drivers that I have been racing against for quite a few years and I also say:
"Put some rear double adjustables on that Mini(on SA's now) and give Ron some more seat time and you might have a good DS race there."
I don't understand why people think the non JCW package cars have "no chance" in DS. Look at what Chiles did at the recent tour before Nats.
Data from asphalt is more important than second day nats at Forbes imo when looking at future classing cause of new-nat-site.
Is the JCW car going to be faster? Sure...on some but not all courses. Is it going to be slower than a base car + LSD? I doubt it depending on tire fitment.
Does the SEB want to speed up GS?
Evidently so.
Does the MiniS have to be included in that goal.
Nope.
Will the 05 and up MCS continue to dominate GS if they leave it in GS?
Yup.
SO many other car moves hinge on the MCS...kinda weird.
I still might end up in one for next year and think that I can do ok in DS if I go that route.
GlenH is a GREAT measuring stick(superfast 90%+ of the time) to base travel plans on if the cars end up in DS.
FM(still hate the interior design though)
But...
We got some very interesting data at our sunny event that happened on asphalt today.
Ron Bauer(SEB) jumps in a MiniS...
What I consider to be the top DS package/driver right now(Glen Hernandez/330) races against him in identical conditions.
Everyone on good tires.
Glen 56.6xxx/Ron 57.1xx.
Some would say: "See! the MiniS can't run with DS".
Or: "Just a local event/who cares".
I say it does matter because those 2 are pretty good drivers that I have been racing against for quite a few years and I also say:
"Put some rear double adjustables on that Mini(on SA's now) and give Ron some more seat time and you might have a good DS race there."
I don't understand why people think the non JCW package cars have "no chance" in DS. Look at what Chiles did at the recent tour before Nats.
Data from asphalt is more important than second day nats at Forbes imo when looking at future classing cause of new-nat-site.
Is the JCW car going to be faster? Sure...on some but not all courses. Is it going to be slower than a base car + LSD? I doubt it depending on tire fitment.
Does the SEB want to speed up GS?
Evidently so.
Does the MiniS have to be included in that goal.
Nope.
Will the 05 and up MCS continue to dominate GS if they leave it in GS?
Yup.
SO many other car moves hinge on the MCS...kinda weird.
I still might end up in one for next year and think that I can do ok in DS if I go that route.
GlenH is a GREAT measuring stick(superfast 90%+ of the time) to base travel plans on if the cars end up in DS.
FM(still hate the interior design though)
The DA's don't make a .5 second difference, and, on some courses, no difference at all. AND, one asphalt local event proves nothing IMO with only 2 drivers IMO.
Today, at a local, we had 8 top national drivers run my Mini with fresh 710's. We also had a dealer, that, amazingly brought in a JCW MCS with LSD and we slapped some Hoosier A3S05's on some heavyass stock 16's for a little test. Needless to say, I ran the JCW Mini faster than my fully prepped 05 MCS w/DA's, SSR Comps, 710's and all the preparation needed from alignment to lightweight exhaust etc.... Also, the JCW Mini had a full tank of gas with full exhaust and onboard computer and Harmon Kardon sound system and mine was on empty, so, the JCW was about 125-150lbs overweight compared to ultimate race trim. Oh, and the JCW had a crappy factory alignment too. Each of the top national drivers clearly agreed of the HUGE difference between the JCW and my 05 MCS.
Its CLEARLY on another level from the 05 in GS. All I have to say is, if they do bump the 05 up to DS with the JCW, the 05 will immediately be obsolete, even with 17's on the JCW. One other thing, if the SEB does back out on their plan, they sure the heck had better put them on the same line, otherwise the 05 in SP trim will be obsolete with update/backdate.
Oh, and, with your comparison, I drove an 02 underprepped Celica today at a local for the first time for 1 single run and was within .5 seconds of my Mini at the time of the run, and, I was even with or within a few tenths of a couple top National drivers who drove my Mini as well. If the Celica is top dog again in GS, you can bet your *** that I'll be running one or a GTS next season for sure, it will CLEARLY beat the 02-04 MCS with the right driver IMO on MOST courses on asphalt, but, certainly not all.
#43
09-26-2005 | 05:54 AM
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From: Mt. Airy, MD USA
Mike, I'm not in total disagreement with any of the things stated by the SEB or otherwise.
A few of things:
1) If they're gonna bump the '05 to DS, are they going to leave the MS Protege there? It ran faster than G Stock '05's. I can assure you that if the Celica's are willing to come back out against them, they're hipocrits.
2) .5 - .7 is a normal margin between D and G, always has been at the National level.
3) I am 100% sure that if Rob Carpenter would not have won again this year, he'd have been within thousandths. Again, I told him to run his Celica this year.
4) In my opinion, because cars look the same, doesn't mean they can't be classed differently
MINI IS THE MANUFACTURER, just like Chevy... :impatient
5) A 100% bone stock MINI (with R's of course) will run the same times as a prepped car. We only make the changes so the car is more easily adjustable and TRY to get an advantage in weight, etc. Heck Tony Savinni's car had SA's, stock wheels, and stock exhaust. I ran about 20 runs back to back and found the SA's gained NO time (I actually lost .1) versus stock shocks.
So, all this continual CRAP about development means nothing to me. The car is developed from the factory because of it's stiff chassis and springs, IMO.
Finally, I have no plans to be in any of those classes next year, so I don't even have a dog in this fight...
Brian
A few of things:
1) If they're gonna bump the '05 to DS, are they going to leave the MS Protege there? It ran faster than G Stock '05's. I can assure you that if the Celica's are willing to come back out against them, they're hipocrits.
2) .5 - .7 is a normal margin between D and G, always has been at the National level.
3) I am 100% sure that if Rob Carpenter would not have won again this year, he'd have been within thousandths. Again, I told him to run his Celica this year.
4) In my opinion, because cars look the same, doesn't mean they can't be classed differently
MINI IS THE MANUFACTURER, just like Chevy... :impatient 5) A 100% bone stock MINI (with R's of course) will run the same times as a prepped car. We only make the changes so the car is more easily adjustable and TRY to get an advantage in weight, etc. Heck Tony Savinni's car had SA's, stock wheels, and stock exhaust. I ran about 20 runs back to back and found the SA's gained NO time (I actually lost .1) versus stock shocks.
So, all this continual CRAP about development means nothing to me. The car is developed from the factory because of it's stiff chassis and springs, IMO.
Finally, I have no plans to be in any of those classes next year, so I don't even have a dog in this fight...
Brian
#44
09-26-2005 | 06:32 AM
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Oasis: Interesting data on the JCW.
Too bad that it did not have the 17" wheels though.
Also, most will agree that the CelicaGT and pre 05 MiniS are a great match.
Brian: I still think some cars are going to get moved to from DS to GS to meet the goal of speeding up GS.
GTS Celi/MSProtege are two likely candidates.
Interesting about your experience with the shocks.
I think it does suck what has happened. Some of the people with older Mini's had to go out and buy 05's(It would be hard to talk me into saying the pre 05 car is as good as an 05 car) or bought new 05's and now there is a danger of the cars not being the top dog anymore.
Would of been nice if they could of put the 05 "on the bubble" in DS for a year like they did with the 04 S2000 in AS which appears to be a good move BTW.
FM
Too bad that it did not have the 17" wheels though.
Also, most will agree that the CelicaGT and pre 05 MiniS are a great match.
Brian: I still think some cars are going to get moved to from DS to GS to meet the goal of speeding up GS.
GTS Celi/MSProtege are two likely candidates.
Interesting about your experience with the shocks.
I think it does suck what has happened. Some of the people with older Mini's had to go out and buy 05's(It would be hard to talk me into saying the pre 05 car is as good as an 05 car) or bought new 05's and now there is a danger of the cars not being the top dog anymore.
Would of been nice if they could of put the 05 "on the bubble" in DS for a year like they did with the 04 S2000 in AS which appears to be a good move BTW.
FM
#45
09-26-2005 | 06:43 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 374
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From: Mt. Airy, MD USA
I guess that's my point. If they're going to move the Protege and GTS down, you might as well leave the '05 car there. Then, I still feel the Celica (GTS or GT) can compete, you'll have the MSP and MCS. I'll bet all three of those cars could have some good battles.
It really comes down to the stupid theory of the three car/three class stuff. The JCW would go to D Stock where it may not even be able to win against the ZHP. I've driven the ZHP against a 330 back to back and saw a HUGE difference in handling and times on a 30 second course.
It's a shame they're thinking the way they are...
The thing about the Celica being slower is this: if the car is not developed just right, a good driver can jump into a MCS and go faster, easily. And that's what people keep seeing, I think. However, a properly prepped Celica can run right with the Cooper.
Now, if you were going to buy a car for G Stock, what would you rather have, a car that's easy to setup and MAKES you money? Or the difficult one to setup with none (?) or less contingency.
THAT's why you see all the MINI's.
Brian
It really comes down to the stupid theory of the three car/three class stuff. The JCW would go to D Stock where it may not even be able to win against the ZHP. I've driven the ZHP against a 330 back to back and saw a HUGE difference in handling and times on a 30 second course.
It's a shame they're thinking the way they are...
The thing about the Celica being slower is this: if the car is not developed just right, a good driver can jump into a MCS and go faster, easily. And that's what people keep seeing, I think. However, a properly prepped Celica can run right with the Cooper.
Now, if you were going to buy a car for G Stock, what would you rather have, a car that's easy to setup and MAKES you money? Or the difficult one to setup with none (?) or less contingency.
THAT's why you see all the MINI's.
Brian
#46
09-26-2005 | 05:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
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?How about this idea?:
Move the WRX and Neon SRT4ACR(whatever they call it) to GS and leave the 05MiniS alone?
Is this possible for next year with member comment period etc.
Dodge has a very good contingency and I think Subaru does too.
I haven't seen those 2 cars get it done in DS yet or for awhile now...
Put the JCW in DS for next year to see how it does and if it sucks, move it down.
This way, the people who bought MiniS's last year can have another year of fun.
To tell you the truth...Karts are starting to look better and better to me.
Musical cars is getting old...
FM
Move the WRX and Neon SRT4ACR(whatever they call it) to GS and leave the 05MiniS alone?
Is this possible for next year with member comment period etc.
Dodge has a very good contingency and I think Subaru does too.
I haven't seen those 2 cars get it done in DS yet or for awhile now...
Put the JCW in DS for next year to see how it does and if it sucks, move it down.
This way, the people who bought MiniS's last year can have another year of fun.
To tell you the truth...Karts are starting to look better and better to me.
Musical cars is getting old...
FM
Last edited by Fastmike; 09-26-2005 at 05:05 PM. Reason: spelling
#47
09-26-2005 | 05:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 374
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From: Mt. Airy, MD USA
That idea sounds fine to me, but can't happen next year due to member comment period, blah, blah, blah...
Funny you should say that Mike...see you next year?
Brian
Originally Posted by Fastmike
To tell you the truth...Karts are starting to look better and better to me.
Musical cars is getting old...
FM
Musical cars is getting old...
FM
Brian
#48
09-26-2005 | 06:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Originally Posted by BGarfield
That idea sounds fine to me, but can't happen next year due to member comment period, blah, blah, blah...
Funny you should say that Mike...see you next year?
Brian
Funny you should say that Mike...see you next year?
Brian
Ron Bauer got a DP car...I can't let him have TTOD can I?
Seriously though:
I can tow with my Miata at 25mpg+.
I already most of the equipment I need less Kart suit but have street bike gear which works too.
My small tilt deck trailer is set up for a golf cart so it would work great for a Kart.
Have been riding and tuning dirt bike for most of my life so I know my Kart will be running well no matter what the weather.
SOOO easy to work on..Top end in under an hour.
Rest of the stuff is pretty basic.
Hopefully new Nats will not be too bumpy cause I am getting old!
OUCH!(the next day anyhow).
I am OK in Karts already even if I have not autoxed them.
We'll see...There is a local kart that has been offered to me to try out.
I am worried about his top end though...He is on his 3rd+ year on it.
We'll see.
FM
#49
09-26-2005 | 07:01 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 23
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From: West Chester, PA
Next year?
Just so everybody knows, Tony's (my) car at Nationals was stock except for 710's, Koni SA's, and the Cooper front bar. The car has Fog Lights (front and rear), Partial Leather, MultiFunction Wheel, HK, Cold Weather, and the Trip Computer, and DSC. It still has a stock exhaust, stock wheels. The car was aligned by Steve Snow at Bimmerworks ( www.bimmerworks.com ).
Otto's has placed their order for a 2006 JCW car and it should arrive (barring any factory delays), by November. Tony, Steve and I plan on doing some testing on this car pretty extensively this fall. I'll post up dates once the car arrives. If the car seems competitive, I'll order one for next year and prep it for DS when I turn my '05 in.
I just don't think that the JCW will make that much of a difference on an autox course. I also think that the logic at play here is pretty lame. Let's reshape GS for cars that aren't produced anymore and at the same time move a popular car into a faster class where it'll be uncompetitive for what gain?
Otto's has placed their order for a 2006 JCW car and it should arrive (barring any factory delays), by November. Tony, Steve and I plan on doing some testing on this car pretty extensively this fall. I'll post up dates once the car arrives. If the car seems competitive, I'll order one for next year and prep it for DS when I turn my '05 in.
I just don't think that the JCW will make that much of a difference on an autox course. I also think that the logic at play here is pretty lame. Let's reshape GS for cars that aren't produced anymore and at the same time move a popular car into a faster class where it'll be uncompetitive for what gain?
#50
10-03-2005 | 09:45 AM
3rd Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 254
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