Drivetrain Manic Motorsport brings us N18 owners OBD II Tuning! Solution is finally here!
#2277
Nice dyno run, kind of looks like my stock turbo pull but no swing at the end like that. My stock turbo just ran out of air/breathe around 4500 just like what looks like what is going on with yours. Either boost leak or turbo would be what I would look at but I'm sure your tired of hearing that. Lol
Would be nice to see what the MAF was doing during that run .
That's your stage 3 turbo JMTC?
Would be nice to see what the MAF was doing during that run .
That's your stage 3 turbo JMTC?
#2279
#2280
Yeah those can be fun to chase ...
Keep your chin up and keep trying, how hard is it for you to drop down elevation and test ?
One thing that whipped my butt was a new K&N air filter that coated my MAF with oil, washed the filter and sprayed the MAF off with sensor cleaner and all lined out. I know your saying others are experiencing issues but it might be something to check
Keep your chin up and keep trying, how hard is it for you to drop down elevation and test ?
One thing that whipped my butt was a new K&N air filter that coated my MAF with oil, washed the filter and sprayed the MAF off with sensor cleaner and all lined out. I know your saying others are experiencing issues but it might be something to check
#2282
#2283
Yeah those can be fun to chase ... Keep your chin up and keep trying, how hard is it for you to drop down elevation and test ? One thing that whipped my butt was a new K&N air filter that coated my MAF with oil, washed the filter and sprayed the MAF off with sensor cleaner and all lined out. I know your saying others are experiencing issues but it might be something to check
mQubed Motorsport, Manic Tuning Dealer
__________________
2013 GP2 #295, 270whp/310wtq, KO4 47mm Turbo, 18" NM Wheels, Alta intake, Manic Stage III+, HFS-3 Meth, 30% E85 Blend, Forged IC, Alta Hot Pipe, P&P/Ceramic Exhaust Manifold, m3 Extreme Ceramic DP, Vibrant mid res, 4" Double walled Tips, WMW/KW V3 CO, Alta Rear CA, CREE Fogs, Black out F/R Rings and Gas Cap, M7 CF Front Splitter, and No Stickers. MORE TO COME!! Previous 04Triple Black 17% Alta, MM Air/H2O, CAI, OBX Header, FBT Head, Shrick Cam, 234whp
2013 GP2 #295, 270whp/310wtq, KO4 47mm Turbo, 18" NM Wheels, Alta intake, Manic Stage III+, HFS-3 Meth, 30% E85 Blend, Forged IC, Alta Hot Pipe, P&P/Ceramic Exhaust Manifold, m3 Extreme Ceramic DP, Vibrant mid res, 4" Double walled Tips, WMW/KW V3 CO, Alta Rear CA, CREE Fogs, Black out F/R Rings and Gas Cap, M7 CF Front Splitter, and No Stickers. MORE TO COME!! Previous 04Triple Black 17% Alta, MM Air/H2O, CAI, OBX Header, FBT Head, Shrick Cam, 234whp
#2284
I was thinking about this yesterday while loading a moving truck and something struck me (no it wasn't a box). We've all been forgetting pressure ratio and our compressor maps. We all know you can make 280 bhp (245 to the wheel) with a JCW turbo at sea level. Lot's of folks have done it. But what happens when we figure altitude into our compressor maps.
280 bhp needs 28 lbs/min or .17 M3/s of air flow. We also know that 1.5 bar or 21.75 psi of boost will get us there. So lets plot it on a JCW compressor map at sea level.
Pressure ratio = (atmospheric pressure + boost pressure)/inlet pressure. Inlet pressure at the turbo is typically calculated as 1 psi less than atmospheric due to the pressure drop caused by the air filter and inlet.
(14.7 + 21.75)/13.75 = 2.65 pressure ratio.
Now lets try the same calculation at 8000 feet where atmospheric pressure is 10.9 psi.
(10.9 + 21.75)/9.9 = 3.29 pressure ratio.
Here are those figures plotted on a JCW compressor. The blue dot is where we land at sea level and the red dot is at 8000 feet.
Hitting those pressure ratio and flow numbers at 8000 feet is just beyond the JCW turbos capabilities.
Just for kicks lets do the same thing with the JMTC 47mm GT Dominator.
Same story here. This one not only puts us beyond the rpm limit of the turbo but also on the wrong side of the surge line.
There's an old joke that goes like this. A man was driving across the US and got lost so he stops and asks this farmer for directions. The farmer scratches his beard in thought for a second and says "Well you keep going down this road till you get to the stop light in town... No, no wait a minute that ain't gonna work." He thinks a bit more and says "Ok young feller. Turn around and go back the way you came. When you get to the fork in the road... Nah that ain't gonna work neither." After thinking for several minutes the farmer finally looks at the man and says "I'm sorry son but I don't think you can get there from here."
In short, without a larger compressor exducer I don't think we can get there from here.
280 bhp needs 28 lbs/min or .17 M3/s of air flow. We also know that 1.5 bar or 21.75 psi of boost will get us there. So lets plot it on a JCW compressor map at sea level.
Pressure ratio = (atmospheric pressure + boost pressure)/inlet pressure. Inlet pressure at the turbo is typically calculated as 1 psi less than atmospheric due to the pressure drop caused by the air filter and inlet.
(14.7 + 21.75)/13.75 = 2.65 pressure ratio.
Now lets try the same calculation at 8000 feet where atmospheric pressure is 10.9 psi.
(10.9 + 21.75)/9.9 = 3.29 pressure ratio.
Here are those figures plotted on a JCW compressor. The blue dot is where we land at sea level and the red dot is at 8000 feet.
Hitting those pressure ratio and flow numbers at 8000 feet is just beyond the JCW turbos capabilities.
Just for kicks lets do the same thing with the JMTC 47mm GT Dominator.
Same story here. This one not only puts us beyond the rpm limit of the turbo but also on the wrong side of the surge line.
There's an old joke that goes like this. A man was driving across the US and got lost so he stops and asks this farmer for directions. The farmer scratches his beard in thought for a second and says "Well you keep going down this road till you get to the stop light in town... No, no wait a minute that ain't gonna work." He thinks a bit more and says "Ok young feller. Turn around and go back the way you came. When you get to the fork in the road... Nah that ain't gonna work neither." After thinking for several minutes the farmer finally looks at the man and says "I'm sorry son but I don't think you can get there from here."
In short, without a larger compressor exducer I don't think we can get there from here.
#2286
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: At 8200 over sea level
Posts: 405
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I was thinking about this yesterday while loading a moving truck and something struck me (no it wasn't a box). We've all been forgetting pressure ratio and our compressor maps. We all know you can make 280 bhp (245 to the wheel) with a JCW turbo at sea level. Lot's of folks have done it. But what happens when we figure altitude into our compressor maps.
280 bhp needs 28 lbs/min or .17 M3/s of air flow. We also know that 1.5 bar or 21.75 psi of boost will get us there. So lets plot it on a JCW compressor map at sea level.
Pressure ratio = (atmospheric pressure + boost pressure)/inlet pressure. Inlet pressure at the turbo is typically calculated as 1 psi less than atmospheric due to the pressure drop caused by the air filter and inlet.
(14.7 + 21.75)/13.75 = 2.65 pressure ratio.
Now lets try the same calculation at 8000 feet where atmospheric pressure is 10.9 psi.
(10.9 + 21.75)/9.9 = 3.29 pressure ratio.
Here are those figures plotted on a JCW compressor. The blue dot is where we land at sea level and the red dot is at 8000 feet.
Hitting those pressure ratio and flow numbers at 8000 feet is just beyond the JCW turbos capabilities.
Just for kicks lets do the same thing with the JMTC 47mm GT Dominator.
Same story here. This one not only puts us beyond the rpm limit of the turbo but also on the wrong side of the surge line.
There's an old joke that goes like this. A man was driving across the US and got lost so he stops and asks this farmer for directions. The farmer scratches his beard in thought for a second and says "Well you keep going down this road till you get to the stop light in town... No, no wait a minute that ain't gonna work." He thinks a bit more and says "Ok young feller. Turn around and go back the way you came. When you get to the fork in the road... Nah that ain't gonna work neither." After thinking for several minutes the farmer finally looks at the man and says "I'm sorry son but I don't think you can get there from here."
In short, without a larger compressor exducer I don't think we can get there from here.
280 bhp needs 28 lbs/min or .17 M3/s of air flow. We also know that 1.5 bar or 21.75 psi of boost will get us there. So lets plot it on a JCW compressor map at sea level.
Pressure ratio = (atmospheric pressure + boost pressure)/inlet pressure. Inlet pressure at the turbo is typically calculated as 1 psi less than atmospheric due to the pressure drop caused by the air filter and inlet.
(14.7 + 21.75)/13.75 = 2.65 pressure ratio.
Now lets try the same calculation at 8000 feet where atmospheric pressure is 10.9 psi.
(10.9 + 21.75)/9.9 = 3.29 pressure ratio.
Here are those figures plotted on a JCW compressor. The blue dot is where we land at sea level and the red dot is at 8000 feet.
Hitting those pressure ratio and flow numbers at 8000 feet is just beyond the JCW turbos capabilities.
Just for kicks lets do the same thing with the JMTC 47mm GT Dominator.
Same story here. This one not only puts us beyond the rpm limit of the turbo but also on the wrong side of the surge line.
There's an old joke that goes like this. A man was driving across the US and got lost so he stops and asks this farmer for directions. The farmer scratches his beard in thought for a second and says "Well you keep going down this road till you get to the stop light in town... No, no wait a minute that ain't gonna work." He thinks a bit more and says "Ok young feller. Turn around and go back the way you came. When you get to the fork in the road... Nah that ain't gonna work neither." After thinking for several minutes the farmer finally looks at the man and says "I'm sorry son but I don't think you can get there from here."
In short, without a larger compressor exducer I don't think we can get there from here.
This is the kind of conversation I like to have. And for sure a excellent explanation of whats going on at high altitudes. Somehow as I was saying, the oxigen is there, the thing is that the turbo cant do the work. So either we set lower target HP´s (hence less air flow required) or get a different turbo, or trying to reduce intlet drop, or move to the right the dot
By the way MAP B is set to 1.4bar, that will put us in PR 3.15, right?
Last edited by MiniMoic; 09-06-2016 at 08:51 AM.
#2288
We have confirmed that updating the entire vehicle eliminates the VIN code error. When I can get some spare time I hope to be able to determine if just a few specific ECU's can be updated as opposed to the entire vehicle. Six plus hours for a full vehicle update plus the time for a Manic tune makes for a long day.
In your opinion having this fault (if I do not have an option to update the entire car) is still ok for the tune and car?
#2289
I know you guys are talking about N18's but I did see a little performance lost the higher I went up but isn't that to be expected with the air ?
I got out and tried to do some walking/hiking and my performance was down as well. So i just decided to hit the ski lodge and have a few beers...lol
I got out and tried to do some walking/hiking and my performance was down as well. So i just decided to hit the ski lodge and have a few beers...lol
#2290
Originally Posted by MiniMoic
So Tigger, based in your input, I will have to fit one of these turbos for my application, right?
#2292
They only sell one. 44.5 mm inducer with 60 mm exducer. Should flow enough for 350-360 bhp. Call it 310 to the wheels give or take. I haven't been able to get a map out of them. Check some of our other outstanding vendors. Might have one in stock and might convince them to produce a map so we can get a better idea.
#2293
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: At 8200 over sea level
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They only sell one. 44.5 mm inducer with 60 mm exducer. Should flow enough for 350-360 bhp. Call it 310 to the wheels give or take. I haven't been able to get a map out of them. Check some of our other outstanding vendors. Might have one in stock and might convince them to produce a map so we can get a better idea.
#2294
Although I didn't tune our friends in Mexico City I have been in contact with them and we are working towards a solution. Based on their boost log in stock mode it appears that lowering the boost alleviates the surging issue which makes sense as the pressure ratio being requested is lower.
#2295
Although I didn't tune our friends in Mexico City I have been in contact with them and we are working towards a solution. Based on their boost log in stock mode it appears that lowering the boost alleviates the surging issue which makes sense as the pressure ratio being requested is lower.
PD: sorry for bad english LOL
#2296
#2297
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: At 8200 over sea level
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But I think this can be solved via software, cant it?
#2298
We tried several times, focusing on map boost lock and baro boost lock and still the same problem. We even tried with european tuners that tune stage 3 minis and they also don´t understand why this happens. Another thing we tried is that requested torque to be higher than calculated (that might trigger this) but no luck also.
#2299
To whomever installed these tunes please feel free to contact me at the email above. Any input you have would be greatly appreciated in helping resolve the clients difficulties.
#2300
Dyno runs with AFR
Based on the first set of DashCommand log files for a different vehicle in MC the AFR appear a little lean in stock mode. I have requested additional .lgf files in Map A and Map B. A lean condition could trigger the ECU to dump pressure in order to protect the engine. Tunerlab have you recorded AFR's during these runs or made log files using DashCommand that you could send me at lou@prototype-r.com? Also please provide any details you may have of the tune installed and supporting mod's.
To whomever installed these tunes please feel free to contact me at the email above. Any input you have would be greatly appreciated in helping resolve the clients difficulties.
To whomever installed these tunes please feel free to contact me at the email above. Any input you have would be greatly appreciated in helping resolve the clients difficulties.
here is dyno runs for PONCHO Mini JCW with and without BOV (forge) and AFR measured with lambda on exhaust.