In my opinion, the "snowplow / snow ramp" effect of non-abs brakes in snow is misleading. Yes, I understand the concept, and it technically makes sense.

In reality?

I have a fair number of hours of snow driving in my lifetime. Most of the time, the plows and other cars have packed the snow down to a point that there isn't much loose snow around to begin with.

And for the threshold braking folks... in a panic stop? A real panic stop? On a track, where you have multiple tries through the same turn to figure out how much grip there is, yes, threshold braking works great. On a street, when you haven't done a few test stops in that spot to see how much grip is available... Foot to the floor and ABS sounds like a better answer for a panic stop to me.

Yes, some people are much better drivers than me.

 

It was not nor is it currently, my intent to argue; I've driven cars with and w/o ABS on snow, rain, race tracks, etc. I was only trying to suggest why the original poster might have a valid reason to want no ABS not that it is useless or bad. And as for locking up in snow, I've used that technique before and it has worked well.

That said, I am glad my MINI has ABS and all the cars we own (for street) have some form of it.. I would never let my daughter drive one w/o but I also made her take Skid School (and more are coming) so she knows what to expect (and not) from ABS.

 

For the longest time, my 'frugal' father wasn't of a mind to have a new car and so that was that ... no ABS. I would agree with you that 99% of today's drivers do not know of and are not trained in threshold braking. But if you are, you need not have experience with any given road to use it effectively.

The challenge is to be as aware a driver as possible and thus hopefully avoid such situations. I wish it was as easy as that

Being aware of the car even when you are doing something you didn't expect to do becomes instinctive with practice. Feeling the imminent wheel lock and reacting correctly is no different than any other trained behavior that can be instinctive with practice.

I don't think any of us was born knowing how to drive - but maybe there is a human gene that defines right-foot-slam-on-middle-pedal-in-panic

ABS is good thing.

 

Buy an Enzo?

 

I've seen your track video's... and I'd like to ammend your statement. It should read, "Very few drivers know more about brakes and control then me, as I frequently extract the most out of a cooper. Utilizing braking and cornering forces at an absolute maximum."


Regardless this discussion is rediculus. ABS brakes are meant to maintain steering control (all be it slight or very reduced from normal) so that the average driver can maintain steering under hard emergency braking.

Even in emergency situations I have yet to have my abs brakes fully kick in on the mini... this is including some scary scary moments on TN 129. This car has better abs brakes then most and certainly better then most if not all domestics.

I'd venture a guess that I could stop better in the wet, snow, ice, gravel and other slippery surfaces without abs... But again, if I am concerned about the difference between non-abs brakes and abs in this situations I am at that raggad edge... and that being the case I should not be on a public road. In my time spent driving old classic track cars and newer rally cars all of them had the abs removed... Yet I still find the abs on the mini quite fine... even during track days.

If you really feel you shouldnt' have it in your mini... I think you are doing something wrong and should get to a track for instruction asap.

 

Something bothers me about your Chrysler. What model did you have with air brakes, also do you have air brakes endorsement on your license. Possibly you should not have been driving that vehicle without proper training.

 

The chrysler was a '91. It had air brakes (high pressure), I was warned that they were dangerous to work on. Training? Nobody said boo about it.
The dealer "checked it out" twice after my complaints, they told there were no problems. I was never to "Slam on the brakes!" .

 

I think the bottom line is that you were going to fast for the conditions. We can argue the "i didn't slam the brakes" or "I didn't pump the ABS brake system" argument just as we can argue that the brakes were fine. It is possible that there was a problem with the system. Who knows? ABS is pretty much here to stay unless something new comes along and it is useful. Most of the articles that I have read have a base of the user feeling safer rather than the system not working. This means that the end user pusher the car harder than normal thus making it impossible for the system to help in any way.

ABS is not optimal for all situations and it would be nice if you could turn it off. All the arguments about piling up snow in from of the tires is crap if you just SLOW down and take the extra 10 min to get where you are going.

 

so the ABS sucked on one car, never use it on any? That's kind of weak logic.

It's true that ABS increases stopping on soft stuff that's deep enough for the "snow plow" effect to create more drag than driving on the boundary layer. Tons of data on that one.

Most of the studies I read on ABS accident rate noted an increase in driving aggressiveness that countered the increased safety of the ABS. The drivers knew it was there and pushed harder than if they had driven a car without it.

No skill of any driver can modulate an individual brake, and ABS can, so there are times when the ABS is pretty much the only way to stop under control.

But mostly I see this stuff as citing the few cases where a system doesn't work as well as it not being there as an excuse to throw out all the benefits that the system has to offer. It's the net gain in safety that's important.

What sucks most of all is that in our litigeous USA, we're deprived of things like ABS defeat buttons, as we obviously can't be trusted with questions of our own safety!

Matt

 

Especially when 29% of teenage drivers admit to driving while texting.

 

And 71% of teens don't admit to sh*t.

 

Well said!

 

ABS lowers insurance rate.

 

Exactly. Reminds me of an argument I heard once from a kid I went to high school with about why seat belts were dangerous: "What if you are going to run off a cliff? You won't have time to undo the seat belt and jump out." The argument is so stupid on so many levels (not to mention that there were no cliffs anywhere near where we lived). Or, "I know someone whose arm was burned by an airbag" (as opposed to having his head go through the windshield?).

 

Of course I was traveling too fast--I had NO brakes!


My driving style was unmodified as I did not recognize that ABS would affect braking one way or the other.

Until such time as the algorithms controlling ABS are perfected, I shall trust to my own hard bought skills.

I don't view unpredictable behavior as a benefit.

 

... A rotating wheel cannot not transmit more than a force of 1 through it. If the wheel is being used for traction, a maximum of tractive force of 1 may be transfered to the road. If said wheel is also asked to steer the vehicle, a percentage of the tractive force will be needed to effect a directional change. i.e. If a steering force of 0.7 is added to the equation then the wheel will not be able to apply more than 0.3 to traction. Similarly, if the wheel is asked to direct a force of 1 for the purpose of braking, than ZERO force can be applied to any steering function.

This is why a locked wheel will not steer and also why ABS-off braking is shorter than ABS-on braking on sand, gravel and freshly fallen snow. On these surfaces, the accumulation of material in a wedge ahead of the locked wheel is adding braking force that the wheel is not able to provide. By preventing lock-up on dry or wet pavement, ABS allows the car to steer while providing the near maximum braking force to a wheel.

A superior driver can perform the same function... albeit nowhere near as quickly as an ABS system.

Now you are all free to resume your bickering.

 

They are NOT unpredictable. And that is the whole point. There is no way that you can accurately and consistently modulate your brakes. Period. So, you had brake failure once. Sounds like you should just take the brakes off your car.

 

Maybe you can't but I'm pretty light on my feet ... lol.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think locking up a wheel on fresh fallen snow - or stale snow for that matter - is going to stop you very fast. I keep hearing this "wedge" theory, yet every vehicle I've seen that locked up the wheels on snow ended up pushing that little wedge right into the nearest obstacle. You better pump the brakes if you want to stop and I for one can't pump 'em as fast as abs.

 

Herr Pendergast,

The wedge is real. It's physics. The ability to feel (rather than to measure its effect in another thing altogether. In fact, about the only place even well-skilled drivers can feel the increased slowing is on sand or very large gravel.

Also as soon as the snow begins to either melt, clump or become irregular (as opposed to its freshly fallen particulate state), the "wedging" is pretty much gone.

 

Which means, for practical purposes, you CANNOT count on a wedge. Ergo, ABS are definitely a safety PLUS.

 

Well, you can pretty much count on it in sand. But then once you stop, you have another problem... getting going again. To be sure, ABS is still the most statistically significant safety development of the FMVSS age (1968 - present). Just being able to steer in extremely low mu situations means the difference between and accident and a safe adrenaline-pumping incident.

 

physics, smchmysics!

OK, I'll agree that in very very deep snow, very deep loose sand, or say 6 inches or more of pea gravel your wedgie might pile up enough particulate to augment the braking process. Of course we rarely drive in "very" deep snow, and almost never in loose sand and probably never in 6 inches or more of pea gravel so I'll have to side with LynnEl and figure you just can't count on the wedge.

I don't (can't) fault your physics, as you pretty much say, under perfect conditions....

 

C'mon Matt, you know that is the old "ancedotal" story line often seen on NAM. Kind of like:

"My father changed his oil every 3K miles and so do I"

People love throwing out ancedotal stories even though they mean very little.

How about synchros? Prefer double clutching?

No, that has been refuted. See the posts higher in this thread. Again ... the proof of less deaths on the highway never materialized. It was when ABS was used in conjunction with an ESC did the anticipated decrease in deaths appear. Simply put, no human being could every modulate one wheel at a time, do the correct wheel, do it fast enough, every time.

But if the OP dont like ABS, his money, his car, he can take it off.

 

Hmm. Can I bicker with your fast and loose use of force? In general, the picture you're trying to convey has some truth, but the analogy or use of terms is just...bad.