sorry for all the responses to earlier posts, but this is the first time Ive read this thread all the way thru, and I had to set some speculation straight. seems to me any attempted fix so far has been grasping unsuccessfully in the dark, and until mine becomes regular, and there's a possible fix that's different from everything else, Im not letting my dealer work on the car, just reporting each instance.

And not holding my breath.

 

From the UK-based MINI forum:

tiing chain tensioner rattle
In relation to the issues regarding the horrible rattle heard on start up the has been a revised action to hopefully rectify this issue and it concerns the leght of the tensioner in its installed state and depending on the measured length either a new special order tensioner will be required or a new chain, tensioner and guides will be needed

I've seen a couple of comments recently on a revised timing chain clatter fix by MINI wherein BMW has started replacing chain, tensioner, guides, and sprockets. Seems to be only on UK-based MINIs, and most of the posters spell better than this guy ...

Has anyone had this done here in the colonies - and did it solve the rattle?

 

Check out the JCW forum and you'll see that there are also reports of this issue in there too.

 

I think your replacement last month (January '09) is the most recent one I have run across, and sadly you know too well how well this worked. I haven't seen any reports of more recent replacements being done and subsequent success or failure. It's interesting, the associated clatter fix article on MotoringFile has been strangely silent for quite some time...not a peep for almost seven months.

There are tensioners in the parts inventory that were introduced in April '08 (#11317565868) and November '08 (#11317582036) but the purported spring-loaded tensioners supposedly became available after that (and I'm guessing you didn't get one). I have not seen a part number for this subsequent re-design if it exists.

The HLA root cause makes a whole lot more sense to me.

 

And to me as well, esp. the part about where the camshaft comes to rest at power down, this explains the seeming randomness of it all. But evidently it doesnt make sense to BMW's crack team of so-called engineers.

No problems since last tues, so I keep my fingers crossed.

 

There are two fresh UK posts in the MINI2 forum that report timing chain tensioner replacements within the past week. It is very probable that these new parts are the spring-loaded versions that just became available.

The first one (Dave104) notes that he's had the replacement for four days and has not had a re-occurrence of the death rattle (yet).

The other (TDLC) has had his MINI back for two days and, as he puts it, "The rattle now sounds nastier."

http://www.mini2.com/forum/2nd-gen-f...ml#post3658275

 

So, in other words, there's still no non-conjectural evidence of what causes this problem, or it's severity, or it's fix.

I'd like to see some actual numbers that show what percentage of engines get this noise. I'm not convinced that we can draw any conclusions about the extent of the problem based only on the numbers of BBS posts about it.

 

You are right, we really cannot draw any conclusions about the extent of the problem. We know a number of folks have it as posted on various forums. We know that some of the Peugot folks have it. We know Mini is attempting fixes including part redesign. Accordingly, it is more than just a handful of instances and enough to warrant some serious effort. However, there are a bunch who don't have it. Most of those who have it are distressed.

Even Mini would have a hard time giving an accurate idea as to the extent too. They only know what has been reported to them. Some do not report the problem to their dealers thinking it normal, some are waiting until they have to go in for something else, some are holding off for the final fix as opposed to the interim attempts, some dealers probably don't report it to Mini, ... Further, the turbo cars sold are at different stages in their lives and used differently. It is not trivial even for a mfr to try to come up with a percentage. Take 08 Minis - some are still on dealer lots. Some were just sold this month. Some were sold a year ago. Now Mini could say (they won't and I would not in their shoes) we have had XXX instances reported to us, but even if they did, that would be a minimum number and the reality is likely higher.

So again, we can conclude it is serious enough for Mini to attempt fixes, but not so serious that every Mini has it. (as to this conclusion)
(as to the problem)

 

in the interim, Ill consider it a "quirk." as to when the frequency of the quirk finally gets on my nerves, I just

 

On the other hand, everyone still gets free maintenance for the first 3 years, and that would increase the likelihood of MiniUSA getting accurate information regarding the issues these engines are having. Cashing in on free maintenance is a big motivator to bring the car in and once it's in the shop, why not tell Mini about all the problems your car is having?

 

True, it does increase the likelihood of folks taking their car in for service, but there are a lot of leaps of faith to conclude Mini has accurate and comprehensive info as a result or that it has been analyzed properly. Remember, NASA knew about the o ring before the space shuttle flight. I stand by what I said - you believe what you want to believe, you don't have to live like a refugee (gratuitous Tom Petty reference).

 

Good point about NASA and the O-rings, but the motivation was different in that case. NASA's problem was there were too many people invested in seeing the shuttle fly for anyone to feel comfortable saying "stop." What I see with this is a fear that Mini is ignoring the problem to protect corporate profits, something that NASA doesn't have.

Also, I think it's just as large a leap of faith to assume MiniUSA cannot accuratly analyze the data. I feel the truth is actually somewhere in the middle: Mini has some data that they have not released yet, as much because of inaccuracies caused by the small population of noisy engines, as any inability to process the data.

 

Is this a problem with '09 models as well?

 

Carve, you can go to the database Sticky in the 2nd Gen Problems/Issues forum and see Post #s 146, 120, 99, 86, 85 in there... and there are more reports in other threads too.

The '09 is not immune. Sorry.

 

I've been following the discussion over at MINI2:
http://www.mini2.com/forum/2nd-gen-f...n-cold-83.html
Posts 1655 and 1663 are rather troubling. Owners there are suggesting that their engine failures originated with the rattle and progressed from there. Let's hope a lasting solution is not too far away. Having test driven the R56 MCS, I love the way it pulls. But until the problem is fixed, it's hard to make a long term commitment to a car that appears at least in some cases to have the potential for serious grief

 

Thanks for the post Bobs! This is the first real evidence I've seen reported of the cold start death rattle manifesting itself as a catastrophic engine failure. Thankfully, it sounds like in these two cases the MINIs were still within their warranty period.

How many more will follow? Maybe enough that BMW cannot ignore it anymore.

 

My point with NASA was they had the data, they did not analyze it properly. Tufte has a great treatise on this in one of his books about the visual display of information.

Like I said, I stand by what I said. You are reading things into my posts that are not there.

 

Yup, and the way things are going, it will affect the 10s, 11s, etc until they find the problem and fix it correctly. If not, just find me a rebuilt Tritec and retrofit my car.

 

Here's a forum thread about some dude having the noise issue, then the timing chain broke and killed the engine.

http://www.r56mcs.com/index.php?topic=20.msg91#msg91

 

Don't panic, it affects the Cooper S not the standard model. You're OK.

 

Just talked to a MINI exec last week about this and he unfortunately had nothing new to report. However it's my understanding that something is coming.

 

No offense Gabe: the news that a fix is coming must be a ruse. Those w/ the problem have been hearing that for more than a year.

A cynical view might be that BMW is simply leaking hopeful news through various channels to the desperate masses. BMW calculates the masses remain assuaged and immobilized by the naive thought that BMW must eventually come to their rescue, as though business decisions don't matter and corporations are altruistic and maternal. In the interim, BMW patiently awaits the expiration of warranties and for affected owners to sell their cars. Eventually the hue and cry recedes. BMW fixes the problems (or tries to) in the mid-model refresh. By the time JD Power and Consumer Reports and others catch up with BMW's messy little problems and begin reporting them, the intangible hit on the MINI's (and BMW's) reputation is hopefully much less expensive than the immediate cost of actually fixing all the affected cars.

The first NAM thread began 12/20/07. The first MotoringFile article was written 2/20/08. The NAM Cold Start "Chatter" (f/k/a "clatter") Database began on 2/25/08. This issue has been around for over a year.

On and on it goes ... the endless online debate does nothing to fix cars and seemingly nothing to move BMW. In fact, some might say the online chatter defuses what might otherwise be a flood of letters and calls to BMW, consumer agencies and lawyers.

My SA told me at first that he didn't hear the noise in my car, but I should use Sunoco 93. (I always use 93 or 94 octane.) My second SA told me that a chain noise is normal till the car warms up. When I hear those practiced responses of "hear no evil, ...", why would I believe reports that a fix is at hand?

Other posters have reported it's quite common to be told by SAs that it's a "characteristic" noise and won't hurt the engine. It seems if anything is done re: replacement cam tensioners, guides and even new engines, it's only after repeated complaints. Nonetheless, posters report 1st, 2d, 3rd and 4th generation cam tensioner fixes don't work.

MichiganMini reports that it's hydraulic lash adjusters or cam tensioners.

MINI2 reports one or two MCS engines being destroyed because the previsously noisy chain catastrophically broke.

Meanwhile, many users also suffer defective manual transmissions, multiple CELs and unuseable cars b/c of frozen throttle bodies, faulty auto up/down ("dipper") windows, erratic electronics functions and carbon build-up, etc.

MINI is a great engaging concept and the car is very fun to drive. It's marketed very well. Too bad it's so unreliable. At the end of the day, I don't want to to be in the shop three times in the first year of ownership and wonder every day what's next and what happens toward the end of warranty.

Say what you will, I've had four new GM products over the years. Not one had anything near the problems suffered by my slightly more than one year old MCS. Yes. GMs generally don't have the crisp handling and engaging styling. But at least they got me up and down the road everday without a myriad of problems. I suspect there are other brands of that same more reliable caliber. Too bad it isn't MINI.

PS As I write this tome, my car sits in the shop and my SA denies any cold start problem.

PPS So much for thoughts of my next car being a BMW.

 

Couldn't have stated it better myself, though I think there are other factors contributing to BMW's inaction in addition to those stated above (which I've already postulated back in Post #816 in this thread.) Nonetheless, it certainly appears that short-term business motives in decision-making are taking priority over developing and maintaining a customer base that is loyal to the product over the long haul. Too bad.

 

I recall reading your post. Very well said. I'd only note a personal opinion that there is a dangerous tipping point in consumer sentiment. Once "tipped," it goes over hard and is very hard to tip back. Witness the pervasive bias against American auto brands despite current rising quality ratings and positive car magazine/show reviews for several US automaker lines. No one knows if MINI is anywhere near that tipping point. We're all too myopic as MINI owners and there's nothing mainstream yet. But it only takes one mainstream report to begin the dominoes falling. It seems to me a risky game for MINI to play, particularly as it may spill over and affect the BMW brand.

 

Looking the web over, USNews is the only review that questions Mini reliability, simply putting up JD Power's Vehicle Dependability Study and Initial Quality Study for their reliability score. (I like the USNews' method of summarizing multiple car reviews.)

The "4" out of 10 the Mini gets crushes its overall score (17th). I haven't found any lower on that site. (VW gets 5 for some products.)

As a counter, a buddy calls yesterday bombing down the highway in his MCS at 85 mph getting 35mpg all smiles:

Any problems? "Nah. You gotta get one of these."

PS - Lotus: Tufte!? Yikes!