The fix does not include Vanos replacement.
I did one today, no updates on the bulletin.

 

Mea Culpa" as in "Oops - my bad". I just picked up my '07 MCS from the Portland OR dealer after getting the latest and greatest timing chain rattle repair. The timing chain deflection measured 69.54 mm, so I got the full package of replacement parts - chain, guides, rails, tensioner, crankshaft sprocket, and a bunch of seals, bolts, and assorted gaskets. The vacuum pump was also removed and checked for binding, apparently in response to recent reports of engine failure due to pump seizure.

The reduction of general engine noise, both external and cabin level, is truly dramatic. I don't think this engine ever ran as quietly as it does now. Hope it stays that way!

It appears that my previous comments on this forum about the revised BMW order to "replace everything" are in error. An enthusiastic and very well-meaning SA had verbally relayed a summary of the latest timing chain repair tech order over the phone to me, but missed some fine print details of significance. Oops. During my visit to the dealership, I requested and was allowed an opportunity to read the actual tech order , but was not permitted to walk out with a copy.

The first part of the tech order requires the tech to check several engine components, like the vacuum pump, to eliminate those items as a cause of the noise.

Second, the existing timing chain deflection is measured using the new tensioner piston. The old tensioner piston is removed and the new unit installed with the locking nut backed fully off. The piston is then torqued to a stated number, the locking nut finger-tightened to the block, then the entire unit removed from the engine. A measurement of the distance between the base of the locking nut and the tip of the piston is taken.

If 68 mm or greater, this and other data are then submitted to the regional BMW engineer for review. His approval is required (seems to be automatic according to the SA I talked to) to additionally remove and replace the timing chain, chain rails, guides, the crankshaft sprocket, camshaft bolts, and assorted seals, gaskets, and Torx bolts. The tech order specifically stated to not replace the camshaft sprocket or Vanos unit if damage is not observed.

I mentioned other MCS owners experience with recurring chain rattle with just the new tensioner installed, and that possibly the 68 mm standard was too loose. The SA said in those cases, BMW will create a separate "engineering file - PuMA". to track that particular car for a solution. So far, the Portland OR dealer has not had any "come-backs" with this latest fix. Got my fingers crossed!

Again, my apologies for the bum gouge ...

 

If anyone wants to see it for yourself, there is a PDF copy of the Service Bulletin that OldMGguy speaks of at the MINI Owner's Lounge. Look for the thread titled "BMW, Repair Your Reputation" or something like that. I'd post it now, but it's getting late. Let me know if you can't find it and I'll go hunt it down tomorrow. Part of the SB is to check the vaccum pump, so they're all getting inspected as part of the rattle repair.

 

I just got back from the dealer. (I already have the previous tensioner fix.) They were unable to witness the chatter that I get every few days. They also measured the timing chain at 67mm which is within spec. So.... for now they will do nothing. I appreciate and respect my dealer (Rasmussen in Portland)but I am not happy with BMW. They know this problem exists, but have set the bar very high to qualify for the newest fix.

About the PUMA that some dealers are denying existence of: They may be technically correct from the way the question or statement is being made by the owner. The way it was explained to me is that the PUMA does not exist by itself. It is a file that is created by a dealer when certain conditions exist with a car.

In my case, if the dealer could verify "THE" sound and get a timing chain measurement of 68mm, the dealer would create a PUMA for my car and submit it to BMW for warrantee approval. I'm guessing other conditions could generate a PUMA.

I got this information from my SA and it makes sense. If it flies in the face of other knowledge out there, please chime in. I'm all ears.

 

I've got a question: what does PUMA stand for? I apologize if I missed an earlier post answering this question.

 

MINI2a. that sucks buddy. my dealer called back and said that they wont have to listen for the sound again. They admitted to using the old part. So i just have to bring it by on a schedule that is convenient for me.

They did say that they would not do the long list of parts fix since my tensioner measured out on the low end at 63mm.

So i would just get the newer cam chain tensioner..nothing else.

 

I get the feeling that this is going to happen to everyone eventually. Why not just do a recall or simply have a liberal application of this fix for anyone that shows up with this complaint? I'm perplexed about this. I listen for it every morning but have yet to get it, with just over 10,000 on the odo.

 

Sooo... I get home, let it cool down, move the car out of the garage, cool down and then BINGO! It happens again. I'm going to structure the start ups the next time I bring the car in so that I am there for them and they do them on my proposed schedule.

Also, are you sure about 63mm? Mine was in compliance at 67mm. Can it be that two chains 4mm in length different could both be OK? If this is true then I am actually happy, since mine has only 1mm to go before they will create the PUMA on my car.

 

it is possible that i misinterpreted.

I got the notion that 61mm to 69mm+ was the range they were going by. meaning my 63mm was on the low end of being out of wack..

sorry i couldnt be more help.

 

I don't know either.

My suprise is that a precision chain could wear than many mm and still do it's job properly.

Anyone with expertise have an explanation?

 

I agree Rasmussen MINI in Portland OR has been wonderful in working with their MINI customers in dealing with the timing chain rattle issue. All of the MINI service advisers are up to speed on the problem and solution. I just picked up my '07 MCS for the latest and greatest timing chain fix. The chain slack measured at 69.54 mm, so I got the full package - chain, tensioner, guides, rails, crankshaft sprocket, and a bunch of seals, gaskets and Torx bolts. So far, after several overnight start-ups and one very nose-down start-up, it's as quiet as a Honda. In fact, the whole general engine noise level both interior and exterior, is much less than before.

Forget the PuMA reference number we've been pushing here (I'm guilty of it, too) and on other forums like MINI2. PuMA is BMW German-speak for an individual car's tracking file concerning a defective part issue.

The BMW computer reference for the noisy timing chain issue (analysis and repair procedures) is SIM-11-02-07. Your service advisor (remember, they're schedulers, not mechanics) will use this number to source the information they need to schedule repairs.

SIM-11-02-07 sets a 68 mm timing chain deflection threshold for determining excessive wear in the timing chain system (chain, guides, rails, crankshaft sprocket). At or larger, you gets lots of new parts, but only a new tensioner piston if the car rattles on start, but chain deflection is still within tolerance.

To do anything, the tech needs to hear the rattle on start-up. Leave the car at the dealership overnight parked in the steepest nose-down attitude available. Set my car off every time. Apparently, tilting the engine forward (sideways actually) causes the tensioner piston to slowly drain its oil supply and fill with air.

 

Let me correct an error.

The "slack measurement" talked about in the SIB is NOT the total length of the chain, nor a direct measure of it's slack. It's the length the piston must have to move the tensioner into the chain enough to tighten it. This is measured by accessing the timing chain assembly, tensioning the chain by moving the piston, locking the piston at that length with a special tool, then taking the piston out and measuring it tip to tip.

This length can change dramatically with very little change in timing chain length. If you want proof, go loosen the rear wheel of your bicycle and push on the middle of its chain while you move the rear wheel. You'll see it takes only a few fractions of an inch of rear wheel movement to cause a large difference in chain deflection.

Reading through my copy of the Service Information Bulletin, the number is indeed 68 mm (2.67 inches). If the piston is shorter than this, only the chain tensioner is replaced. If the piston is over 68 mm, then the tensioner, chain, guide rail, tensioner rail, sliding rail, crankshaft sprocket, and bearing bolts are all replaced.

 

Ken I found the Lounge at http://ol.miniusa.com, however using my Canadian VIN I can't seem to get registered. If you could find a way of posting the PDF that'd be great. If you find it easier, PM me and I'll get you my email address. Thanks very much.

Ric

 

[quote=Ken G.;2769723]Let me correct an error.

The "slack measurement" talked about in the SIB is NOT the total length of the chain, nor a direct measure of it's slack. quote]

Thank you Ken G. That makes a lot of sense.

Do you know what the range of acceptable tensioner measurements is?

 

[quote=Mini2na;2769854]No, sorry, I don't. The only specific number I've seen is the "decision" length of the piston in regards to this job. No idea how this relates to the allowable tolerances and I can think of several reasons why they'd be different.

Here's the address of the PDF I'm reading:

http://www.w2ec.com/Mini_Chain_Tensioner.pdf

 

Thanks! It's nice to have the SIM 11 02 07 to read for myself.

 

Thanks very much for posting the 'official' document. Much appreciated

 

thanks as well. there's a lot of mystery with these engines.

 

You're welcome everyone, glad to help out.

Don't get me started about the lack of real information about this engine. I've always bought a maintenance manual for every car I've owned, so it kills me not having one for this car. I'm dying to find out how the variable valve timing is controlled, what little I've seen of it looks facinating. I wonder if MINI considers the technology to be proprietary?

 

Amen to that! I'd dearly love to get my hands on a decent MINI manual. The folks at Bentley Publications have been promising to update their '02-06 manual for the newer cars, but no publishing date yet.

http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/th...29501&tstart=0

 

SI M 11 02 07 is certainly interesting reading...particularly the Situation description where it reads "The rattle noise will increase with RPM, but will dissipate after approximately three seconds if left to idle."

Say what? Is there ANYONE who's rattle magically disappears in three seconds at idle? By "dissipate" are they attempting to state that it gets noticeably quieter after 3 seconds? I'm trying to figure out if there's even an inkling of relevance to this claim.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm glad BMW is finally addressing the issue. Just seems like there may still be some smoke and mirrors at play.

 

Personally, I doubt there's any smoke and mirrors here. Sorry for the long post, but here is my thinking:

First of all, this is a BMW-MINI internal document contained in their TIS computers. There's no official public access to it, in fact I've heard of several owners that got to read it at the dealer, but couldn't take a copy home. Why would MINI "smoke and mirror" their own techs?

Also, you're reading the symptoms section. This is only to tell the tech which issue is covered by the SIB. If you were to read further, you'll see the tech is told to go through several diagnostic steps to eliminate several other possible causes for the noise. If those items are OK, or they get fixed and the noise continues, then the tech starts working on the timing chain. Yes, the symptoms section isn't consistent with some of the posts made here, but how many of those posts were made by people who had eliminated the vacuum pump, injector, VANOS, clutch and pump noises before posting?

In addition, that section is telling the tech that the core timing chain problem could still exist without the noise being heard. That's important, since one of the primary complaints I've read is the noise coming back after service. Now MINI is telling it's techs the noise can stop AND THE PROBLEM MIGHT STILL BE THERE. That's a good thing, it makes them keep looking for problems regardless of noise.

One thing to keep in mind, it's easy to mis-read this sort of document. You have to read it as a mechanic working on a car, not as a driver diagnosing a problem on the road. As a trained mechanic myself, I've seen plenty of operators misinterprete service information. That's why I don't blame MINI for restricting this information, that's a lot easier to do than spending hours trying to educate drivers on the technical details of the repair. While a lot of us here might find that sort of thing interesting, a majority of drivers don't.

 

+1

BMW-MINI will be the solution. (I hope )

 

That's a great point Ken. Appreciate your perspective from a technician's point of view...helps to put it into context.

 

Thanks, guys. Glad it makes sense.