yeah the tensioner/chain noise is more of a raspy rattley sound that's hard to distinguish out of the general DI startup noise, while the knock is a distinct and syncopated BANGBANGBANG coming from the right side of the engine (as y're sitting inside, it's louder if you open the glovebox.) Neither problems throw codes, the car runs smoothly, no weird exhaust emissions, or otherwise.

 

Have been getting this problem (rattling when accelerating when initially starting the engine) that past couple of days and trying to figure out how best to approach it with the dealership. Was at Sterling MINI earlier this summer when I started reading up on this issue and the service rep made it sound like it was an earlier model issue (mine is an 09) and they only had one or two isolated incidents of it. So thinking of going to Alexandria MINI in VA next week and approaching it with them. Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.

 

We all thought the issue would be going away with the "improved" tensioner piston that went into the engines Spring '09. Judging from other posters, the issue is still with us .

The relevent BMW service bulletin is SIM-11-02-07. Ask your SA to print out a copy for you. It is very much in BMW's financial interest to replace your tensioner piston asap, as the "full monty" repair is very expensive if excessive damage to the timing chain components has already occurred. Make that point to the SA. If you get any grief or BS, ask for another SA, or their supervisor. Also print out this forum's "Stock problems" title page, and highlight all the posts and views of the two cold start chatter topics, compared to other MINI problems. Do the same with the UK's MINI2 forum. The problem is real, it's a serious design error, and it's known world-wide.

SIM-11-02-07 requires the tech to hear the chain rattle. You will probably have to leave your car overnight. Ask them to either leave it parked in a nose-low attitude overnight, or do a short-cycle start-stop sequence twice (simulating rolling out of the garage for a wash, then back inside for the night), and leaving it overnight. Those two scenerios are known to trigger chain rattle if the tensioner piston has failed (collapsed).

Some dealers are now pretty good at taking the educated customer's word and replacing the tensioner piston on request, like Rasmussen MINI in Portland, OR . Others are still in denial . Let us know how it goes with your dealer - post names and responses. We need to alert all MINI owners where the good and bad dealers are located.

 

My SA at MINI of Mountain View said they hadn't seen any tensioner rattle problems, but had heard about them from other dealers. This was August 2009. I was not able to replicate the problem on demand, but had heard it several times. So I figured odds were against them replicating it, but I wanted to at least have a record of having complained about it. So, scheduled an appointment online and mentioned SIM-11-02-07 in the notes.

They wanted to keep if for at least three days, and gave me Clubman MCa as a loaner. They were able to replicate it, and fixed it. They had the car for a week.

By this time, all dealers should be aware of the problem, skilled at replicating the symptoms, and willing to look at your car. If you can't get satisfaction from the Sterling SA, go elsewhere.

I've recently been adding an audio system upgrade (amp and new speakers) that has resulted in a lot of testing where I fire up the engine, try something, and shut it off. This has gone on for several days as I sorted out an odd effect with the various wiring connections. Through all of it I was listening for a recurrence of the rattle, because this is the kind of situation that first brought it to my attention. It has been fine, not even a hint of a rattle. So far, the fix seems to have worked for my MCS.

 

>>>Here are my questions:
1) is this issue something that ALL MCS owners should have addressed? Or only those w/ the "death rattle"?<<

The problem is NOT something that EVERY Mini owner needs to address. If you're NOT getting the noise, you DON'T have the problem. Contrary to what some people here say, the problem does not happen to each and every engine. I'm at 30,000 miles with my early 08-build MCS and the engine is running great.

If you want, I can email you a copy I have of the SIM 11-02-07. PM me.

In defense of the dealers, there are also plenty of semi-educated owners making life tough on them.

 

Thanks Ken,
-(I originally posted that question you addressed).

I'll just keep my ear out for the noise.

 

Thanks for the great information. My MINI was built late Spring 2009, but had the rattle noise :-(

Anyone been to Alexandria Mini in VA or Sterling Mini concerning this issue? As I mentioned before, about 6 months ago the Sterling SA seem to try to dismiss it as "that's the first I've heard about it".

I have about 7,500 miles on my Mini now; so is the issue come down to the tensioner piston?

 

Yep - the root cause of the timing chain rattle on "cold starts" is a $43 part. Here's a link to the timing chain system
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=MF73&mospid=50031&btnr=11_3924& hg=11&fg=25
The defective hydraulic piston (part #4) is the "muscle" that holds the tensioner (#3) against the timing chain. Internal seals are supposed to hold the extended piston in it's last position at shutdown, but defective units will "collapse" back to a retracted state over time (6+ hours or more). It takes up to 2 minutes of engine run time to purge the piston of air and reposition it for the correct chain tension. During that purge, we get to hear the slack chain whanging against the assorted guides, rails, and sprockets, doing rapid wear in the process. Parts #1, 2, 3, 6, and 11 will rapidly deteriorate in a surprisingly short time during the start-up "rattle".

Not all MCS have this problem. but there's enough owner complaints world-wide for BMW to issue repair bulletin SIM-11-02-07, and for Consumer Reports to rescind their recommendation for the '07-09 Cooper "S" model.

 

1. Do you have a URL for the BMW service bulletin SIM-11-02-07?

2. How do they determine whether still replacing the tensioner piston will fix it or "full monty" repair is needed?

3. How do they determine or will they even admit if excessive damage to the timing chain components has already occurred?

 

Was actually quite surprised/disappointed to see the '07-'09 dropped from Consumer Reports recommended list as it had always been one of their top performers.

You would think BMW would be doing more to clear up/resolve this issue.

Is this link the latest version of the service bulletin? Notice it indicates only the following: From start of production up to November 28th, 2008

 

Here's the link to SIM-11-02-07 that I have
http://www.w2ec.com/Mini_Chain_Tensioner.pdf

The bulletin first directs the mechanic to verify some other parts of the engine are not the cause of the "rattle", notably the vacuum pump, which is quite noisy. The tensioner is accessed by removing the right front tire and wheel well inner lining, which exposes the engine front. The old piston is removed, and a new one is inserted and torqued to a given value, with the locking nut backed off. Once the torque is reached, the locking nut is screwed down to contact with the block, then the piston is removed. The distance from the tip of the piston to the locking nut is measured. By pushing on the timing chain at a specific value, a indirect measurement of the total accumulated chain, rail, guide and sprocket wear can be made. A piston measurement of 68mm or more indicates things are worn beyond limits, and lots of new parts are installed - a full 8 hours of shop time. Just replacing the tensioner piston alone is a two hour job.

My '07 MCS is going back for it's third tensioner replacement next week, and according to the SA, there is a revised SIM-11-02-07 out, but "no major changes" (I haven't seen it). We did the "full monty" in May '09, and the death rattle started up again last month, after a nice quiet summer ...

And I agree with KenG that not all Cooper "S" engines are defective. My wife's "07 MCS with 28,000 miles has started and purred like a Honda every time - no death rattles ever. My mechanically identical '07 appears to be cursed with multiple defective tensioners. So it's 50% in my corner of the big picture ...

 

oldMGguy,

"Not all MCS have this problem. but there's enough owner complaints world-wide for...Consumer Reports to rescind their recommendation for the '07-09 Cooper "S" model."

C'mon, oldMGguy. I agree that this particular problem may have been one item among many that led to a drop in the ratings, but I think you're wrong in saying "this problem" caused it. Unless you have some inside knowledge as to the frequency of this problem among those responding to the CR survey, you're just trying to be dramatic.

 

anytime there are inconsistencies among the same car model it usually points to bad batch of parts, how big the batch is the $1000 question-- it's like the clutch assemblies, some people go in excess of 100K with no problems, while some cant even make it to 10K w/o a part (like the t/o bearing) going south.

 

The amount of damage and what gets replaced depends on the amount of stretch found in the timing chain. The basic idea is when the chain is slack, any changes in engine speed is transmitted to the cam shafts with a jerk, rather than smoothly. This sudden jerk causes a momentary overload in the chain, which stretches it out. The amount of stretch in a chain is the most common way to measure how "worn out" it is. Past a certain amount of tensioner length, the SI-M assumes widespread excessive wear and requires that all parts of the timing chain system be replaced.

Comparing my March 2009 copy of SI-M 11-02-07 to the June 2009 copy, the only change is to the amount of labor allowed to change worn out parts (reduced to 77 from 78 FRU's).

I think it's difficult to determine the extent of this problem based on Consumer Reports status changes and the presence of a SI-M. Case in point: there's a SI-M (#11-02-08) referenced in the new 11-02-07 that addresses complaints of noisy vacuum pumps. It contains instructions how to determine if the noise is coming from the vacuum pump. If the noise goes away when a vacuum line is disconnected, the SI-M states that the noise is normal and no parts should be replaced.

This tells me there has been a lot of customers who have brought their cars in for service to "fix" a normal noise. Also the number of these customers is, at the very least, equal to the number of people who actually have the timing chain rattle, since both have their own SI-M. There mere presence of a SI-M does not always mean there's a problem with the car.

 

After getting my tensioner replaced back in the spring under the SIM 11-02-07 my car was acting up again and my chain is 'out of spec' so I am getting the "Full Monty" of chain, tension, guide rails, seals, etc... woohoo?

 

I think the chain tensioner fix is akin to putting a "Hello Kitty" band-aid on a deep cut that requires multiple stitches-- there's a larger problem here that BMW/PSA still hasnt figured out yet. Even some who have had the full monty done are experiencing the noise all over again.

 

I think I should be the test car for any new fixes then... my driving habits seem to bring out the worst in it... short trips... chicago weather combined with short-er trips....

 

WOW!! I can't believe this issue hasn't been resolved yet..... yikes!! I brought mine in last year for the noise, and they bled the system or something, and changed the oil. Next day I had the noise. Well, been a quit summar, and whalla, as the tmep drops here in NY, the noise gets worse again.

Just stopped by to find out what the outcome of this was, thought I'd find a fix. No fix for ths, no fix for my broken Navigation system. Amazing lack of support from mini/bmw.

Me thinks they are and will loose alot of cutomers over this. What a bummer.

So what should I do about my noise? Nothing? If my engine blows (cause it sounds like that is just a matter of time), miniusa/bmw will find my car on their doorstep.

 

The replacement of the tensioner mechanism worked for me.

Maybe they have. MINI sales down 44% in Nov. (compared to Nov. 2008). See MotoringFile.com or https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ast-month.html


Get it fixed. If your dealer wont replace the tensioner, go to another dealer. Bleeding the system isn't sufficient.

 

WOW, -44%. Yikes, that's a HUGE hit for them I'm sure. I saw a commercial for some big SUV the other day, sitting next to a Mini (1/2 the SUV's size) and it stated the SUV got better fuel economy than the mini... I said to myself, wow, that will put a dent in sales!! I guess it has already. I forget what brand SUV it was, but I thought it was a smart commercial for them.

Thanks for the recommendation on tensioner. But what bothers me is, most of the folks that have had it replaced, report the issue back just days later. I hate fixing things without knowing it will really fix it if you know what I mean.

Couple years ago I was told to have the plugs in my ford F-150 changed, cause the factory plugs were terrible and sometimes made the truck run poorly. Mine was running fine though, but they said do it anyway. So I had them changed by Ford to the new improved plugs. 2 weeks later I blew the plug threads out of the head on one of the cylinders. The fix was a "helicoil" (sp?) which may or may not work for a couple bills, or replace the head for $3,500. Well, my truck MUST run well as I travel with it, so breaking down with a spit out helicoil was not an option. So changing to new plugs that changed nothing, ended up costing me about $4000. Cause you know somebody probably mis-threaded a plug or something.

Not sure what could occur changing out the "tensioner", but that just sounds scary to me. But then I'm in the warranty jam with mini, if I don't fix it now, they will say it was my fault.

ahhhhhhh what to do?????

 

I've seen the commercial too. It was for a small hybrid suv like the ford escape. They also only compared city mileage which for a hybrid is better than highway mileage since it should be running on the batteries. You can spin with the best PR agents that have ever been.

I have a hard time believing the Ford dealership changed your plugs and then when they blew two weeks later you footed the bill.

 

Listen fellow mini ers . It is import you check your dipstick regularly.
these turbo engine as every turbo engine. have a intrickit. Oiling system.
And is normal for these engine to use oil for these turbo systems.
As with any maint. it is the responsibilty for the customer to maintain
there car. Always check fluids and levels and correct them or get them
corrected. you go to the dentist. he see your teeth are not doing so hot.
why preventive maint. These turbo engine. use a good qt to qt and half every
1500-2000 MILES. So if you dont want your engine to rattle and be noisy
brush your teeth.

 

one of the 'funniest' things i've seen.

 

No they don't. My MCSa uses NO oil at all, even with the tune kit attached. If yr car uses that much oil, then put down yr toothbrush and get it to the dealer. there's something wrong.

 

x2. i've never had to add oil between changes.