Hey guys,

So this morning, the gf's '02 Mini wouldn't crank. Measured the battery voltage - didn't look bad, about 13.5V. Hmm..anyhow I charged it for a bit, then hit the starter. The fuel pump primed, the solenoid clicked (several times) but no starter motor - not even a slow turnover. So I jumped it with the old Merc, and after several clicks, suddenly the starter motor turned over robustly and the car fired up. Drove the car for about 20 min and turned it off. Starter motor wouldn't turn over again. Jumped it again and after a few clicks, again the starter motor came to life. Took the car to Advance Auto and they ran a load test on it with the battery still in the car and declared the battery good. Drove home, shut it off and after a while tried to restart. Again, all systems OK but the solenoid clicks about 10 times and then suddenly the starter motor engages and fires up.

So the question is, is it the battery or the starter motor ? The Advance Auto test notwithstanding, could a marginal battery not turn the motor over at all ? The fact that the motor doesn't even want to turn over even slowly and then suddenly decides to run could mean a bad starter, right ? Your thoughts ?

Thanks,
Bhima

 

I had a similar problem and it turned out to be a bad battery.

GotMINI

 

If the battery load-tested well, then a failing solenoid in your starter fits the rest of the symptoms perfectly, especially the time when you jumped the car and it still wouldn't turn over on the first try.

Try this - the next time the car won't start, give the starter motor a few good whacks with a length of pipe, a rubber mallet, or a lead-faced hammer and see if that allows it to start. If it works, it's obviously only a temporary fix, but it will be one more indication that it's the starter solenoid (which is an integral part of the starter motor in the MINI, rather than a separate component like it used to be in older cars).

 

My first bet would be the battery. Check the battery voltage when you trying to crank. See how low it goes. Maybe just old battery. If you are still on original battery, 5-6 yr is not abnormal for life of battery.

Also, you should get the alternator checked. It can be that the alternator is not charging the battery? Then next stop is starter motor.

Good Luck.

 

A bad alternator wouldn't account for the fact that he wasn't able to jump-start the car.

Checking the battery voltage while cranking wouldn't necessarily pinpoint the battery. If the voltage drops drastically while trying to start the car, it could either be a bad battery OR an excessive drain from a bad starter motor. On the other hand, if the voltage barely drops at all, but the starter still doesn't turn over, that would indicate a bad solenoid, or an open circuit in the starter motor.

Because of the way battery load-testing is performed, testing it with the battery in the car is just as accurate as testing it with the battery removed, so I'm inclined to believe the positive results of the load test.

I still think that a bad solenoid or a locked starter motor would explain all of his symptoms and the test results he's gotten so far. And since the solenoid is integral to the starter motor, it boils down to the same fix either way - replace the starter.

 

Huh? I thought he said he could jump start the car? no?

That and also when OP tried to charge the battery w/ a charger unsuccessfully seems to indicate the battery won't hold enough charge. Well, that would be my guess anyway.

 

When he was jump-starting the car, it took several attempts with the solenoid just clicking before the car finally started. That's not indicative of a bad battery.

Also, he didn't say that he couldn't charge the battery with a charger - he just said that after charging it for a while, the car still wouldn't start. That doesn't say anything about the battery's ability to take a charge - it could have been 100% charged and raring to go when he took it off the charger for all we know. All we know is that the car still wouldn't start. Now, if he had put the suspect battery into *another* car, and then THAT car wouldn't start, that would be a different story, but that's not the case here.

Every one of his symptoms and test results is perfectly consistent with what you'd expect from a bad solenoid/starter unit. Frankly, I don't even know how the battery and alternator came into the discussion, unless we're just assuming out-of-hand that the battery load test wasn't done correctly.

 

Scott X 2!

 

Yup, I guess I was assuming that the test wasn't done correctly as the OP did mentioned "The Advance Auto test notwithstanding". So he wasn't trusting the result to begin with. Thus, I was going down that route. Also I assumed he has original battery. In my experience both the OEM batteries on my old RAV4 and my current BMW stop holding enough charge to start the car at around 5 yr old. So that was inline with the age, in my experience at least.

Your suggestion to try swapping the battery to possibly another car and try to start with it seems to be the easiest and least costly. To eliminate that the battery is a problem. Then, OP can go on to the next item and replace or get the starter unit tested. (Does AAP do that too?)

Hehe... was probably a bad move for me to challenge the senior member to begin with anyway. Hey, I'm a noob, that's what noobs do.

 

I didn't mean to sound as snappish as I did, looking back on my post. And don't ever worry about challenging a "senior member" (yeah - my status here and five bucks will get me a cappuccino at Starbuck's - ) Lord knows I'm wrong often enough.

But I probably have a little more faith in the AAP load test, knowing how the test is actually performed. I wouldn't trust an AAP test of the *charging system* nearly as much, but load-testing is simple, reliable and hard to mess up.

I would have thought of the battery first as well, except that it passed a load test, which aging batteries rarely do, and the fact that he was still having trouble starting the car when he jumped it from another car. If you try to jump-start your car, and you hear the solenoid clicking but don't hear the starter motor spinning, you either have a poor connection on the jumper cables, a poor connection in the battery cables, or a bad starter/solenoid unit.

 

Whoa! You can get a Starbuck's cappuccino for five bucks? Here in the home country of the Lady of the Latte it's more like six + tip.
Anyway, the reason the jump start might have worked is that although two batteries don't increase the voltage (assuming correct hookup) they do increase the available current considerably and if the starter or solenoid is starting to hang, the extra 'umph' can usually get things going.
A voltmeter at the starter/solenoid terminal should measure a minimum of 9.5 volts when the starter is engaged. Any less won't cut it.
Also check for corroded terminals at the battery and starter. The corrosion will limit the current the starter needs to spin.
-Scott: some of the new hand-held testers don't do a true load test (i.e.; glowing hot resistors sucking the life out of the battery), and although I use one on a regular basis, I've -occasionally- gotten different results when throwing the battery on the test bench and hooking it up to a serious machine.
-skip-

 

Hey, you guys are awesome ! Thanks for the discussion. I think I'll check out the starter first before considering swapping the battery. Looks like you have to remove the exhaust manifold to get at it (unless you can access it from below ?). What a pain !

Bhima

 

At 5-6 years I'd say it's the battery. I have and '02 MCS and my 1st battery lasted 4 years. It was so dead that a jump at the contact points under the bonnet didn't work. Had to jump it directly to the battery, which was complicated by the boot being locked and no inside release under the rear seat. Early '02s didn't have one.

 

I have to say that on the MINI, if you hook the cables up and jump in the car and try to start it, it won't work. It takes a few minuets to get a good charge on the battery first before the car will crank.

I'd have to say it is probably the battery. The MINI is not lenient with even a small drop in battery power.

 

are you sure the click is from the starter solenoid? If so this comment does not apply.

My incident of failure to start was due to the floor mat being wadded up under the clutch pedal, and the pedal would not go down far enough to trip the safety switch until after the carpet was straightend out.
John

 

Alright, you guys ready for this ? This morning I tried to start the car - whirr, click, silence. Tried again - total silence ! Battery was as dead as a few doornails - totally discharged.

Time for a new battery I guess.

Bhima

 

Yup, it's time to get a new battery.

 

Not uncommon for the MINI battery to just up and die. YOu did get some good use out of it though.

 

Hehe, actually that's pretty usual for most car. Especially when the weather gets colder. Same thing happened to my BMW and my RAV4. Heck, even my friend's Corolla. He drove to my house one day, we talked for a bit maybe 15 min or so. Came out, and his car won't start. I drove him to near by Auto Zone and got a new battery, replaced and his car is happy again ever since.

At least it didn't leave you stranded.

 

I have a 2002 CooperS. Yup, the starter is shot. How hard is it to replace? Anyone out there with the experience?

 

Changing starters is not terribly hard, but is kind of labor intensive. It is easiest removed from the top after removing the exhaust header from the engine. Remove the two flange bolts after the cat, disconnect the two O2 sensor wires, then remove the heat shield (two bolts) and finally the header/cat itself (8 bolts). You dont have to remove the header, just push it back and lower it down to give you clearance. A heat shield over the starter needs to be removed next, it's one bolt near the oil filter. The shield will now slip off towards the passenger side to reveal the starter underneath. There are two large bolts holding it in place which also function as trans-to-engine bolts, so they will be tight. A couple wires off of the solenoid and it's out. Reverse to reassemble.

 

Disregard...