Well if someone can find the N/A production data for both gen cars thru last year, then we can attempt to "normalize" the data and compare. And how do you know there are x more amount of 1st gen cars "on here" than x amount of second gen? 2 to 3 times you say? Data? Remember the first few years only about 30,000 MINIs were sent to NA per year because BMW wanted to keep numbers low and demand high; were you even around in 2003 when wait lists at some locales approached 3 years? (I think the total # of first gen cars thru 2006 MY sent to N/A was around 185,000, plus however many 07-08 cabrios).

I never claimed perfection or data completeness, it was simply an observation as to the comparative number of posts. However, if U trace Consumer Reports reliability data from 2002 to 2008, you WILL see an incremental improvement from 1st gen to 2nd gen, to the point that one issue last spring had the MINI Cooper in lofty territory with only 2 other cars that carried solid red dots across the board for reliability, resale value, and customer satisfaction, the Prius and Fit, for the first time ever.

So while I never claimed my data was perfect, the 2nd gen car is more reliable, better built, and less quirky than the first gen,while the product, as a whole, has steadily impoved since 2002. I see this in my current car, when compared to my previous, and any SA across America will tell you this: while some issues persist, there are much fewer warranty chargebacks now because BMW has worked hard to improve the product

Let's see, 1st gen: the entire problematic steering system, inc pumps, racks, fans; drivetrain (clutches and flywheels, CVT, axle housings/CV joints), engine mount leaks, door sill rust, spontaeneous combustion (see steering), persistent engine stumble, bonnet and hatch latching issues, leaking coolant tanks, electrical gremlins, wobbly headlights (see bonnet latching) windshield stress cracks, loud dash rattles (to the point that they had to go from 5 to 3 piece after 04), failed fuel pumps, mushrooming strut towers, warped moonroof cassettes, the usual BMW window issues, door latch cables, cabrio soft tops premature wear-thru, etc etc the list could go on...

2nd gen: hood scoop warp, the so-called cold start rattle, clutches/flywheels, fuel line freezups (Heet, anyone? ), moonroof problems, the usual BMW window issues, occasional TPMS sensor problems, and leg burns from tailpipes are the only major repeat issues Ive read about...

If anyone can add to either please do so.

 

Oh man, I don't go that far!

Very true. Further, reports from mechanics in the field can be very unreliable and inconsistent. I do not envy mfrs trying to troubleshoot problems involving systems using sourced components when they have little access. It really is difficult.

You used the appropriate face for that suggestion

Cheers!

 

You made the claim that you can infer reliability data based on numbers of problem posts, so the burden is on you, not me, to normalize the data. I'm simply pointing out the obvious - that there are easily more than twice as many Gen1 cars built as Gen2 and that the average age of the Gen1 cars is more than twice as long as the Gen2. It doesn't take a master degree in statistics to know that a conclusion about reliability based on relative "number of problem posts" on this board is wildly biased.

I dont have access to the latest CR data, but up until a year or so ago, it showed generally average reliabilty across the board except for the problematic first couple of years with no significant change between the Gen1 and Gen2 cars. If you've got more detailed data, I'd like to see it.

- Mark

 

I only have read the first page and last ... but going by your user name you should be comfortable with the MINI HT or CM and dealing with special cars....You have or had a Lotus?

Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious............. I had an exigeS.

If you like the MINI go and get one...is a fantastic little car.

 

I see no MINI in OP's future.

 

LotusLight

I do not see the Mini in your future either but hope that when you feel more comfortable, you will jump in and also join our forum. Perhaps we can see you on the track some time soon as well.

Good luck with your car decision. I am glad you are well informed.

 

Thanks! Track days would be fun. My convertible Lotus does not have a roll bar, so track days are out of the question at present. Even with a roll bar, my head sticks well above where any roll bar would be, so track days might not be a good idea anyway. That would be one of the neat things about a Mini -track days! I could take a Dodge Viper! In the meantime, the street has no rules about roll bars - just obstacles like slow moving cars and speed traps. Yikes!

 

LotusLight,

Which Lotus do you have? Is it the Elise or Exige?

I ran track with a 2005 Elise for 1 1/2 years a while ago. Many HPDE outfits would not let you run w/o the hardtop. Easy car to drive fast but a tough car to master on the track. It does not like large slip angles but rewards TBO and TTO when it is done well. Initially, I would not try to take too much HP or racing tires to the track. You would be able to learn a lot more with a "stock" momentum car like the Mini or the Lotus. I have seen, under expert professional driving, what the Lotus Elise can do and am impressed.

Good luck to you. The Mini is really a fun car. And it is easy to get in and out of it.

 

Pm'd you. Yeah, the Elise is not the easiest car to exit, especially for a tall guy with very large feet. And Consumer Reports hates it (not comfortable!). Somebody posted a video taken from a Lotus which overtook a Mini on a track (cool video with all the stats - speed, rpm, etc). Watching it, my first thought was why was the Lotus going so slow. So, I watched it again and the Lotus did something like 10 seconds faster on the second lap. He was just warming up. No knock on the Mini, but Lotus has won an Indy 500 and the Elise is almost 1000 pounds lighter with more HP than the turbo Mini.

 

yup. no MINI in yr future, dude.

 

Gee Markjenn how come y're not unfairly assailing this poster for this qualitative observation? This remark is the reason I decided to examine the number and frequency of posts between the two generation cars, nothing overly quantitative or analytical, because these two subforums are probably the most popular on NAM--people want to know what they are getting into, problem-and-reliability-wise. Not all of us are scientists and engineers and number crunchers that demand yr so-called "normalized" data, we just want critical car problem information presented in an easily understandable way.

 

You can buy 2 base Cooper S Turbo cars for the price of 1 base Elise. How can you even compare the two?


Did the Lotus Elise win the Indy 500? No. Then how can you compare that either? Using that logic, the Isuzu Impulse won the Indy 500 too because the suspension is Lotus designed.

 

Ooh, and Lotuses are drug runners since Lotus designed the DeLorean! And they do time travel too. I do miss that Joe Isuzu character too.

Seriously, who compared? I was just replying to a poster and commenting on a video which had a Lotus and Mini. My Indy reference was not clear: I meant that it was no sin for a Lotus to overtake a Mini on a track. Lotus has a long racing heritage, including an Indy 500 win and their cars clearly have that racing heritage designed in.

The current Lotuses are entirely different than a Mini and not a substitute. What they have in common is being zippy, nimble and fun to drive. Of course, I also remember a Honda 50cc minibike that was a lot of fun to drive too.

 

You have to go to the right person. See Jessica Confessore next time you hit the showroom. She is the best MINI salesperson they have. I'll be happy to let you have my name so she'll take good care of you

 

Lotus

Have you driven the Evo X yet. Similar in price to a well optioned Mini with a bunch more HP and AWD.

They are a hoot!

 

i'm a new owner of a new MINI. wanted it badly since it first came out and had to hold off getting it for a number of reasons until recently. i absolutely love my car. the bliss i have owning it now made the wait well worth it. i'm the kind of MINI owner who waves, flashes a shaka or holds up a peace sign if another MINI approaches and there's a chance the owner can see me.

coming from that perspective--and perhaps this is dismissive--but to me, a nonchalant/dispassionate/dismissive potential MINI buyer shouldn't become a MINI owner. taking it further--and i'm very much for free speech (and note that right actually applies when it comes to government censorship)--it seems inane to me that someone would start a thread soliciting opinions on why you wouldn't buy a product on said product's forum. the OP might claim that it's mainly out of curiousity, and that might be so, but to this reader and lover of her MINI, that curiousity is laced with venom.

in my opinion, someone who takes the time to attempt collecting anti-MINI-purchasing opinions on a MINI board, and then write lengthy posts to chide those of us who tell said poster to buy something vanilla like a toyota is playing a passive-aggressive game of faux superiority.

but what do i know? maybe i'm not as discerning an auto buyer as someone who owns a lotus. *shrug*

 

Thanks for the suggestion. Going to the car show in a few weeks. Will take a look.

 

Devil, you held off on getting a Mini for your reasons, I am holding off for my reasons. I had no idea people would get so bothered about what I posted (I did say "yet" and that I wanted a Mini and still might get one), but obviously they did. Ignoring it would have made the thread die a quick death.

 

I haven't had any problems with my car yet 07 cooper S. The car doesn't really feel all that robust to me. I'm not sure how well it will age, but I'm not worried I'm selling it next month.

 

Lotus, your logic seems perfectly reasonable to me. The accusatory rants of being a "nonchalant/dispassionate/dismissive potential MINI buyer" are way off the mark and show a lack of effort to understand the original purpose for the thread. You clearly love the MINI as much as the rest of us but are simply trying to be a smart consumer. I am fully on board with your perspective, though I have an advantage in that I already own a fantastic 1st Gen MINI that I wouldn't mind keeping for some time...

...though I did experience how easy it would be to "drink the Koolaid" this past weekend when I had the chance to check out a new R57 S at a Chicago dealership. The temptation was intense. Of course, when the MA claimed total ignorance of the melting hood scoop and cold start death rattle issues with the Peugeot engine, it brought me back to reality.

Even if unavowed, there is clear evidence from multiple sources that BMW MINI has acknowledged the existence of these issues and is working behind the scenes to understand and rectify them. Were I in the market for a new R55, R56, or R57 I would agree that a prudent and reasonable course of action would be to wait for a few months and see how it all plays out. Doesn't make me any less of a MINI lover.

 

my reasons were completely different from yours--i had no qualms about the product whatsoever. the first MA i had turned me off by sheer personality faults plus her lack of knowledge was just amazing. as a result, i checked out other cars--the speed3, miata & GTI among them--and came away knowing fully that the MINI was the best choice for me--whatever faults the car may have. at my request, the sales manager gave me another MA to work with and all was good.

logically speaking, my one (now two) posts hardly count as ranting when compared to LL's many posts lengthily & repetitively belaboring the few points about why he won't buy a MINI..."yet" or otherwise. i mean, come on! it's up to you either to pull the trigger or not. personally speaking, such public waffling over what are to me, statistically unimportant or minor, practically speaking, when the car as a whole is so awesome, is rather pathetic.

but again, that's me and my personal opinion. you posted your viewpoints on here for others to weigh in on; i've posted mine in opposition. that's the whole point of a discussion board, regardless of whether i think your POV is lamely passive-aggressive, or whether we were in complete agreement.

that said, aloha, dear gents. what can i say? i got mine. i'm sure you're enjoying yours, if you have one. if you have a lotus (or other car) instead, have fun with that one. if you're considering purchasing a MINI, i say go for it wholeheartedly. but if it's not for you, well--even a vanilla toyota camry has its faults and its bennies.

 

Looks like anyone who endured any sort of Lotus ownership (including Toyota Elise), shouldn't be afraid of owning a MINI in the 3rd year of the redesign run.

It will be a long time before I get the courage to dive into hand-built car ownership again. Maybe when I'm retired and have a ton of spare time / cash - then I'll do this again, but I'm glad that I did my Lotus stint in my barely thirties without breaking the bank. Now time to play with something that's almost as much fun, yet has 50K worth of warranty :P

 

Actually, my comment was less directed at your post as it was the multiple replies attacking the OP's motivation and judgment. Your words just did a great job encapsulating the many personal character speculations so I chose to use them (thanks). Most of the OP's subsequent posts have clearly just been attempts to further clarify his reasoning and not a belaboring of his perspective.

In principle, I do agree with you that how careful or cavalier you approach the purchase of a new MINI, no matter how much you love them, is a personal thing. At the same time, I would say that everyone is also fully in their own right to determine for themselves whether known problems with the car are statistically unimportant or minor based on the available facts and how thoroughly they do their research. You and others don't seem to think they are significant. Others, including the OP, believe they are at least significant enough to be patient and see how BMW MINI's publicly stated mitigating actions play out. No harm in people expressing their different points of view.

Actually, I just recently took the time to read all the way through Twin Turbo's "Yellow Engine Light" thread. Even if NAM only represents less than one percent of R55/R56 owners, there's still a whole lot of unhappy people with their new MINIs. N/A to you living in HI, but being from a cold winter geographic region it moves me even more into the OP's camp.

 

You raise an interesting point. The sunroof, cold-start rattle, hood scoop issues, while annoying do not diminish the functionality of the MINI. The most significant of the three issues, the cold-start rattle issue may be more a charcteristic of the engine design type than an actual problem. That said some posters engine issues, that have this issue may in deed have potential engine problems, but in a forum it becomes very difficult to sort out the actual problem cases from just the sound of the engine prior to warming up types. There is a point where no useful information can be derived from a topic this thread may have reached that point.
Y'all have fun, and howdy from Texas devlynaskurt!

 

Thanks, I could not have said it better myself.

I think the same point was made in the, uh, 1st post .

Oh, I think that point was probably reached after just a handful of replies. Folks clearly were responding to a different question than was asked. Overall, no biggie, I see even the cold start issues database has now turned from what it was intended into a discussion thread. Sigh.

Sequence - I saw that your Mini has joined the ranks of those with the startup clatter. I am sorry to hear that and wish you luck. I do think it will be resolved, hopefully sooner rather than later. Keep watching Southpark!