I think the theory is that alcohol combines with water and they share the same volume by, well, by the alcohol taking the water into itself, into the interstices of its matrix. So, when you shake things up, the volume goes down by the amount of alcohol in the gas.

100 ml of 10% ethanol gas (90 ml of real gas and 10 ml of alcohol). Add 50 ml of water to the beaker and shake. (That's 150ml of fluid total)

The 10ml of alcohol should absorb the 10ml of water. The total in the beaker is now 140ml.

If you had 15% alcohol in the gas, the level would drop to 135ml. The extra water would stay on the bottom (but there would be less of it). The gas would float on top, but the total volume would decrease because an amount of water equal to the amount of alcohol would have merged with it.

I think this is how it's supposed to work. Need some confirmation or correction out there.

R

 

I think you may be partially right, but I'm having to work to confirm it.

However, the overall level of the liquid will not drop when the water combines with the alcohol because the water doesn't disappear into the alcohol. The water molecules combine with the alcohol molecules though hydrogen bonding via their OH- groups. The result is the water and alcohol molecules still have their same atomic structure, but are now joined and have made larger molecules. That's why alcohol is used as an anti-freeze, the larger molecules have a harder time aligning themselves when the temperature drops, ergo the temperature that the water/alcohol mixture turns into solid is lower. However, the basic chemical properties of the water are unchanged, which is why we can make alcoholic beverages that aren't poisonous.

Your idea of the remaining insoluble water indicating the percent of alcohol may be valid. If the combined alcohol/water molecules are still soluble in gasoline, then it works and you'll see a change in volumn of visible water. If the water makes the alcohol insoluble in gasoline, then the amount of visible water in the fuel will not change. I'm still researching to find out which one it is.

 

That's the gist of the inexpensive commerically-available ethanol test kits. You add pure water and gasoline into a graduated cylinder, mix it up, let it settle and see how much the level of the interface between the gasoline and water has changed. As Ken says, the total volume of the water/gas mixture won't change.

 

THAT sounds much more possible. the interface level changing. I had a tough time swallowing the total volume changing.

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_2143193_test...l-content.html

They explain it better than I can.

 

I bow to far superior understanding of physics. It's the reason I have a degree in plain ol' philosophy -- and not natural philosopy.

 

That's interesting to see documentation that the water-alcohol combination is still soluble in gasoline. I found a scientific paper published online about solubility between gasoline, alcohol and other fuels, but they want $31 from me before I can read it. Heck with that...

 

I just got off the phone with my Mini dealer in Houston (Momentum) and they told me I had the 15% ethanol problem and it's not covered. They wanted to flush the tank, do some other stuff (way over my head) and it would cost around $1500. Is that the only fix to the problem?

 

Has anyone who has gotten their fuel pump replaced ever get their bad pump returned to them? Here in CA, the shop is required to give you your parts back, if you ask for them.

It'll be a bit of mess, but it would be interesting to pull the pump apart and see what went wrong with it. I suspect there's a seal in the pump that's being eaten, and the only way to fix that sort of problem is to change the pump and flush the fuel system.

 

If it's warranty work, don't expect to get the old parts back. The dealer has to send the old parts to mini. If you paid, you should be able to get the old one back.

 

I'm having the same issue with my 09 R55 MCS with ~5000 miles. Started having cold start stall issues (cold=80 degrees ambient) about 500 miles ago. Car runs fine once warmed up.

Took it to the dealer and got the "contaminated gas" diagnosis, and dealer charged me $600 to flush out the old gas, not covered by warranty.

Now after 500 miles of of top tier gas from different stations, I'm still having the same problem, so it's back in the dealer shop and I'm bracing for the next response.

I don't understand how a car destined for the US could fail due to Premium gas composition in < 5000 miles; this sounds like a design issue. Any advice for escalating to Mini USA (in south Florida)?

 

Brought my MCS to Peabody so that they could check out the reasons behind the Rought Idle. This is the third (3rd) time it's been back for the same issue. First time, supposedly they replaced a computer chip, second time, same thing, next time, the Service Advisor told me it was the gas that I was using, (I used Mobil and told me to use Shell (hard to find those stations in New England) and it would clear up. I insisted that they take it for a test drive and they ended up replacing the Timing Chain (only 26K on car.)

Guess what - three (3) days later, the rought idle is worse and the car is now starting to stall. After reading this thread, I suspect I may have a fuel pump issue as well.

 

If the gas is truly more than 10% ethanol then the warranty should not cover it. The gas is at fault and any course of action should start with them.

This would be the same if you got a bad batch of oil and it damaged the engine. Should MINI cover that?

Most states have regulations concerning the quality/grade of gas that is sold. Take a sample of the gas and have the state test it. I am sure they would take any steps needed to get the station back into compliance.

 

I am sorry i am getting tired of this fuel BS. Some one demand them to sample and seal it and send it out for independant tests. I think you will find that they fuel is not at fault. If it is your ready to confront the station and have them pay for repairs. If it is not which i suspsect in 90% or better of these claims your ready to fight mini. I have had my fuel pump replaced at 5k miles on an 09 mcs they "tested my fuel" I was smart we have a no ethnonal fuel provider in my area and i was sure it was toped off with no ethonal gas and it still had issues. I think they have some bad fuel pumps out there. The fuel bit is mini trying to skirt the cost of fixing stuff. Sorry to sound like a rant it just frustrates me. My issue came back and they could not try it down or fix it so they returned to car to me and told me to drive it till the light came back on. I am predicting it is a milage cycle before the computer will triger another fault code. I am not pleased with mini service mini products with mini any thing. The car drives like a dream when it is working and looks awesome but if it can not run on gas i get from a licnesed station any where it is just not worth it.

 

Follow-up to my issue: Dealer replaced the fuel pump, but since this is a "second visit", it was covered under warranty. So far, no further issues so apparently it was truly damage to the pump causing the start issues.

Caused by bad gas or bad pump? I may never know. However, I submitted a formal complaint against the gas station (Sunoco) to the FL state Dept of Standards. To my pleasant surprise, I got a call from a state rep who had attempted to visit the station (though now 3 weeks after the "bad tankfull", perhaps of limited value to catch the problem). Most interesting, they couldn't get the sample because the station was now under major construction. Indeed, looks like all pumps, maybe tanks, are now being dug up. So now I wonder: knowing the construction was imminent, maybe this station was allowing gas to be sold down to the dregs, hence creating the problem. I did get a sample gallon ~5 days after the bad tankful and will see if the state can test that. I'm sure it won't be "official", but if it shows an issue at least I'll know what's at root cause.

My wife and I were seriously thinking of selling this car (how can we drive something where each fillup is Russian roulette?), even to the point of visiting several dealerships. But in the end: we love this car! There's nothing like it. We'll keep driving it, taking care to use only top tier premium. But if this "bad gas" problem happens again, it's history.

 

the "bad gas" line is a bit of a cop-out that some of the dealers use to get out of doing work. Really, if it's particulates, then that's what the filter is for (bad filter?) and a liquid is a liquid, so pumping something with more or less ethanol or water in it shouldn't make much of a difference to the pump. Besides hearing the "bad gas" line, I've NEVER heard a good technical explaination about what in fact bad gas does to a pump and why it's a problem. This is another reason I think it's a BS response.

Matt

 

With you there...

 

there is not one that is the issue. This pump is like many others out there today just at higher PSI so there claim is more that the light your getting the mis-fire is from the bad gas and that for 600 clams they will flush the system clean and make the light go away. This does not fix the root cause the fuel pump. All i can say is ask the dealer to print you out a 30 second ideal chart of you BAR preasure from the pump and yes they can do this, this was done to my car to prove it was the fuel pump. Most dealers are skipping that step when they see the float pop up in the gas. If you measure the BAR and it is higher than 5 or lower than 4.5 at ideal on first start then you have a bad fuel pump. If you problem happens in motion have them rev the car the fuel pump should increase BAR as the cars revs go accordingly. The cam controls the fuel pump on the R56.
TO ANY ONE WHO HAS THE STATEMENT BAD GAS MAKE THE DEALER GIVE YOU A SAMPLE. Send that to your local state government for testing they can prove the smaple is fine thus proving your owed a refund on that lame service

 

That's what I think too, and have posted before. The fact that they can just say "you got bad gas so you have to pay for this" is BS. If I'm not mistaken AZ requires 15% ethanol in Phx during the winter months. It's the mark of a dishonest dealership IMO, and it's too bad there aren't a lot of choices in Mini dealers. By all means get a sample of that gas from the dealer, and if they say they don't have one tell 'em to pound sand and give your car back to you after they fix it without paying.

That's a good explanation, thanks for that.

 

The max allowed by the Feds for an ethanol blend is 10.2% ethanol (except for the E85 fuels)

 

im having a similar "story" thrown at me.

long story short the car gave me a lot of problems when i went to the Helix Cup 4 at Helix in Philly two weeks ago. when i got back to NY i had the car towed to my local dealership (habberstad MINI), because it would not start.

today they call me (this is 9 days they have had my car already) and tell me that there was bad gas in my tank and that i need a new fuel pump @ $905, plus 1.5-2 hours of labor (@ $125/hr) plus tax. a little preface to this gas situation, i was on empty/reserve when they got the car (since the car wouldnt start i couldnt get it to a gas station) and they said they put half a tank of gas in my car THEN tested the gas for bad gas. i am going to tell them not to replace anything on my car and send out the sample they took to be checked to see if it is infact bad gas.

i have been dealing with Mini USA for the past week trying to get me out of the lease on this car. dont get me wrong guys, i LOVE the mini, but in the recent (7-8) months, the car has been nothing but trouble.

a vacuum leak that took them 3 weeks to find? a "popped out" ignition coil that was just recently replaced (and also looks like its corroded on the outside, unlike the other three)

there are too many horror stories about this car and this dealership. whether its the car, or the dealership, or both, that is unknown to me at this point but i would want nothing more than to have a car that gets me from point a to point b with no problems in between.

hoping to work out a deal with mini usa to get me out of the lease and possibly into a 135i.

i will keep you all posted on what happens from here on out. all i know at this point is they are pointing fingers at me....these guys are more a STEALERship than a dealership.....*********s...

 

Glad I found this thread...

Wife has an 09 MCS, ~12k miles.

This just started a few weeks ago when I had her park outside (~40* at night) and when she started it it would not rev, die on start, no power until warm, etc. A couple days later I had the garage back ready for her and no issues. Then a couple days ago I took up the garage again and she parked out side, again similar temps, and when I got in it to drive it did this again. After about 3 miles it wasnt stumbling, but there was no power - in any gear. She got it to the dealership yesterday and we are getting the "Bad gas" line from them.

Hoping they do this under warranty, as this is the 2nd new mini we have bought from Moritz in Arlington...

 

I've had the same issues see the post 2010 clubby died.

Anyhow I was getting fuel at Chevron today when I noticed a fellow from the AZ weights and measures checking pump volumes, I figured I would ask him about our issues. So I said hey have you heard of high levels of ethanol in our fuel? he said "nope" AZ is allowed 10% and we have had that level year around since 2007. I explained the issues we have been subjected to by our Mini dealers and he said "I would call BS on that"
The only issues we have is with the diesel fuel as it has been having too low of a flash point.

Fire

 

Working for the "department of weights and measures" is only one step above being a TSA.... so i wouldnt take anything they say except how accurate the pump meter is to heart. great there allowed 10% to be distributed through out your state. so what if some how more were to get in to the truck or durring the change of fuels in some states with air quality issues some of the ethanol has started to break down in the tank. than what how about what percentage of water and % or unknown are allowed in the fuel.... basically what im saying is that talking to that guy is about as assuring to me as when going to mexico for eye surgery to save a few bucks. people who always think someone is out to get them finacially are ruining this country. take resposibilty for whats happend. as a former shop foremen i understand the pain on a dealers side pulling brown gas out of a tank of fuel "we just bought a chevron" and having to bite the bullet and ship a seized pump that reachs of bad gas to the manufacter knowing i would get paid for it just to make joe blow customer happy. lets just cut to the chase bad gas is real so accept it!

 

Just an update: they replaced the fuel pump under warranty, no multiple visits or bugging them.