Has anybody noticed how nice the MINI (I have a MCS, don't know if the MC does the same) downshifts? I rarely have to use the brakes when coming up to red lights. Saves a HUGE amount of wear and tear on the brake discs, plus its a dream to drive.

Does anybody know if this should be a problem with the break in, though? It does put more stress on the transmition, of course, but I'm still carefull not to go over 4000, even when downshifting. Any thoughts?

 

I'm a fan of downshifting too (and the MCS does it well), but the value of downshifting is a subject of great debate (go figure). The argument goes... when you downshift, you're putting wear on the clutch instead of the brakes. Which would you rather replace sooner, the clutch or the brakes? Put that way, most people would choose brakes as a clutch job on a MINI (or any car) would definitely be at least twice what brakes would be.

So, while you -- and I -- may enjoy the sensation of downshifting vs. using brakes to come to a stop, the economics of this decision may be a bit suspect.

For what it's worth...

 

I dont know about where youre from but in my world ,brake pads and disk are so much cheaper to replace than a clutch job,

It is fun every once in a while.

al b.
brg mc

 

>>Does anybody know if this should be a problem with the break in, though? It does put more stress on the transmition, of course, but I'm still carefull not to go over 4000, even when downshifting. Any thoughts?

Brake pads = cheap
Engine, transmission, gearbox, etc. = expensive

just the way i do math.

 

hmm, issues of clutch replacement have never bothered me. In my experience, only driving cars with a manual transmition, because I hate automatics, a clutch/transmition can take WAY more use than people give them credit for, as long as you're not constantly red-lining yourself. And if I have to put a new clutch in from excessive downshifting, so be it, it's worth the expense of a pleasuable ride. It's like putting miles on your odometer- they're not good to have on, but why did you buy a fun car if you don't want to have fun with it?

Granted, this is just one man's opinion, and I can definately see both sides of the issue, but I'm curious now about the break in issue.

 

In my opinion (and it's only my two cents) downshifting should be saved for situations when you really need it. Like long downhill decents or more fun, actually racing! It's a good skill to have in your bag of tricks but use the brakes...pads and disks are much cheaper and easier on the equipment in the long run.

BTW, if you're ready for "advanced downshifting 101" try this; (kids don't try this on Dad's new "S&quot
Don't use the clutch at all. Yea, when you are say in 4th, perfectly unload the trans by easing off on the gas until with the slightest of pressure on the shifter, the synchos let you tap it into nuetral. Then hit the gas again reving to the "perfect" RPM to match third gear. With a perfectly timed gentle flick of the shifter she slides into third and you don't feel a thing. Just all of a sudden you're in third. Then let off the gas and it decelerates perfectly. I once had to do this when I blew a clutch cable in an old Covair 140 bhp. I had to go all the way across the San Fernando Valley from Woodland Hills, CA to North Hollywood. Creeping along in 1st until the lights turned green then on up through the gears in hopes of making the lights. What a nightmare, but it worked. I got quite a chuckle when I turned it off in my driveway at home... (it was a cheap repair too.)

Yfoiler

 

Hmmm...This IS a subject for great debate. I think a clutch can take all of the downshifting in the world - AS LONG AS YOU USE THE CLUTCH SMOOTHLY - which, IMO, only maybe 5-10% of drivers do. You don't necessarily have to pull the clutch out really slow but you should do it this way until you get really good at it to the point where you're letting the clutch out REALLY smooth.

I downshift with very little brakes ALL OF THE TIME and put a lot of miles on my cars. I am 30 yrs old and have always driven manuals. I have never worn out a clutch (I also don't street race my cars either, well, not a lot at least

 

>>hmm, issues of clutch replacement have never bothered me. In my experience, only driving cars with a manual transmition, because I hate automatics, a clutch/transmition can take WAY more use than people give them credit for, as long as you're not constantly red-lining yourself.


There's a very good article that touches on this on pp105 of the October 2002 issue of Racecar Engineering. Their main concern was what was the most efficient/FASTEST way to go thru a corner (use the brakes only, or rely also on engine braking). Interestingly enough, the most important issues involved: (1) the engine braking effect is more important regarding it's use to alter "brake balance" (front to rear), than it is to minimizing the brake distance, and (2) the importance of downshifting early for a turn relates more to maintaining "fine control" (ie, no shifting) during high-G cornering than it does to (again) reducing brake distance; as it means you won't "upset" the car's lateral acceleration.

They mentioned that early (pre-disc brake) cars used engine braking to "save" the brakes; particularly for endurance races. But, today, the use (or lack thereof) of engine braking was a matter of "feel", or individual style to maintain control. The impression you got was that any well designed contemporary car (especially race car) that is driven properly should be able to use both engine and/or regular braking; with no adverse effect. I can't remember the last time I replaced a clutch; and that includes 105K-miles in a 911 Carrera. It's probably MUCH tougher on the clutch/transmissions when you do maximum acceleration runs. If you double clutch, and match engine RPM's as you downshift.... no problem!

Motor On!

(ps: look up Racecar Engineering. Good article!)

 

There was a question like this in The Straight Dope a while ago.. the conclusion they came up with is yes, it may lead to a more expensive fix, but the wear is not much at all, but more importantally, people with manual shifts do it because we can, and we like to :smile: .

Rocketboy_X

 

Guys,
I have a DS/DS MCS and i love downshifting, it makes me feel that i am in total control of the car.
The way to do it is to balance the brakes & the clutch so u don't wear off either of them. You should not depent solely on clutch to slow ur car down to a halt. The trick is to downshift and release the clutch slowly (balancing it) so that the rpm doesn't go higher than required (thats not too good for the engine too) while at the same time applying the brakes lightly. Hope this helps you guyz.

 

Ok, if you are all woried about your trans do you all drive around in 1st gear all the time? Seriously, do you really think it causes more wear than upshifting? As far as I understand it, the transmission does nothing but change the gears between the engine and the wheels. If the engine is spinning faster than the wheels the new gearing will slow the car down.

Plus I've noticed that the brakes in the MINI need work. In fact I'm thinking that may be the next thing I replace. By downshifting you do not have to heat the brakes unnecessarily.

But hey, if you want to eat brakes and clean your wheels more go ahead, I've never had a problem with downshifting ruining any of my manual's.
-Chris

 

I have always been told and found in the years of driving that it is way cheaper to replace brakes than it is to replace a clutch.

 

>>I have always been told and found in the years of driving that it is way cheaper to replace brakes than it is to replace a clutch.
>>

Yes but what does that have to do with downshifting? Does downshifting ruin your clutch? Upshifting ruins your clutch too so do you drive around in 1st gear?

Basically I want someone to tell me why they think that downshifting ruins a clutch?
-Chris

 

I have always been told that it makes the synchros work harder when downshifting which would create premature wear. Which is why I typically dont downshift and brake instead.

But this doesnt mean I dont downshift on a downhill or through the mountains. Because in this instance brake fade is a factor and I need the engine to help slow me down. Plus if you autocross or like driving fast downshifting can help in maintaining control of the car at high speeds.

 

What they're talking about is using a lower gear to slow the car down on a slope or going into a corner, or something like that. This isn't just shifting, it's using shifting to slow the car down. I was on a road trip and my friend thought he was really cool because he could do this going down a hill, and I had to yell at him. :smile: He didn't even realize he was using the clutch "Dude, this is an automatic". Dummy.

 

>>I have always been told that it makes the synchros work harder when downshifting which would create premature wear. Which is why I typically dont downshift and brake instead.
>>
>>But this doesnt mean I dont downshift on a downhill or through the mountains. Because in this instance brake fade is a factor and I need the engine to help slow me down. Plus if you autocross or like driving fast downshifting can help in maintaining control of the car at high speeds.

But it doesn't... if you're really worried about it, rev the engine a little after you press in the clutch. This MAY have been true 20 years ago but with all the new advances in design of syncro's it's really not an issue any more. Does anyone who think it harms the engine actually know what happens when you shift? I'd bet not... In fact I bet they are the type of people to believe in the silly hoxes that spread via e-mail. I should just stop reading this thread...

 

>> I was on a road trip and my friend thought he was really cool because he could do this going down a hill, and I had to yell at him. :smile: He didn't even realize he was using the clutch "Dude, this is an automatic". Dummy. >>>>>>

WHAT???


As far as downshifting ruining your clutch, it won't AT ALL if you match RPMs. I've been shifting most of my life (hate automatics also) and I've never used the heel-toe method consitently until I got my MCS. Actually, it's only been the last 2 or 3 months that I now use heel-toe/matching RPMS exclusively. So there is NO stress to the clutch. Downshifting this way is as smooth if not smoother than upshifting. And for those of you that don't heel-toe, it's kind of like learning to ride a bike. It's a little tough at first and it seems hard to get comfortable with it. But after a little practice, you're doing it like it's natural and you'll use it all the time.

BTW, in my last car I never heel-toed and I downshifted all of the time (but always released the clutch slowly and smoothly). 95k miles and original clutch when I sold it. I also went 75k miles on my original brake pads! How 'bout them apples! I know the person who bought that car and it now has 100k miles - still original clutch!

 

>>>> I was on a road trip and my friend thought he was really cool because he could do this going down a hill, and I had to yell at him. :smile: He didn't even realize he was using the clutch "Dude, this is an automatic". Dummy. >>>>>>
>>
>>WHAT???
>>

as for a how to.... go to a nice book store and check out a high performace driving book... methods vary greatly but a book will get you started in the right direction...I find the name heal and toe missleading.

 

<<<<I have been heal and toe down shifting for many years..... once you get used to it... it is hard not to do it!!!
>>
>>as for a how to.... go to a nice book store and check out a high performace driving book... methods vary greatly but a book will get you started in the right direction...I find the name heal and toe missleading.


True. I actually role my foot in the MINI. I brake with the left side of my foot (my right foot of course) and roll it to the right to rev the gas while the clutch is fully engaged. If it's done right you'll downshift as smoothly as upshifting!

 

Yes the term heel-toe is quite misleading... it's more like toe-toe. I'm still trying to get used to heel-toeing in my MINI, the brake pedal is a little higher than I am used to. If anyone is interested I have some tips for heel-toeing....

Practice in a straight line while just downshifting without using the brakes. This will give you a feel for how much gas you need to give it to match the RPMs.

Once you have this down start to practice the "roll" while braking in a straight line. In other words, with the left side of your right foot press the brake. While easing down on the brake "roll" your foot so the right side of your right foot presses the gas. While you are doing this be sure to keep an even pressure on the brake because if you lift up you will cause your car to unsettle itself which could be bad in a corner at high speeds.

Once you have this down, practice around the corners. It should be as smooth as possible. The reason for heel-toe shifting is that if you need to brake in a corner (you can't lift off the brakes in the corner at speed because then you may spin out) odds are you are going to need to downshift. Normally when you downshift there is a slight jerking motion that would also unsettle the car. If you match RPMs (basically put your tach where it will end up after the downshift) then it will be smooth and right where you need it when you come out of the corner.
-Chris

 

I downshift and I still had to do the brakes twice and the clutch once (and that was the clutch cyl. not the contact surfaces) in 16 YEARS with my previous car. If you do it right it is not a wear issue