Forgive me for letting my first post be a "help me" post. I'm a long-time lurker/peruser. Hi.

I suspect my dealer is yanking my chain about a service issue.

I brought my 2007 MINI Cooper S to the dealer in with a horrendously loud metallic rattle that sounds suspiciously like videos posted of the timing chain rattle issue (or "death rattle"). The check engine light had come on the prior day, along with a flickering oil light.

This is a video that captures the sound my car was exhibiting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjpvN...eature=related

The dealer told me upon picking it up today that my oil was simply low and that there was nothing seriously wrong with the car. So low, in fact, that they added FOUR QUARTS to top it off. From some Googling, I know that the car will only hold roughly 4.4 quarts. I was 10,000mi away from my next scheduled oil change, and the previous oil change was performed by the very same dealer.

So, about 10 minutes after I got it home, I checked the oil. Granted, the engine was still warm, but this seems a bit excessive. Yes, I cleaned the dipstick very, very thoroughly and confirmed that no oil was on the dipstick prior to checking. I also cleaned and re-checked several times to confirm that the oil level really was this high. Four quarts, huh?

Is the dealer trying to mask the timing rattle by overfilling with oil? Just incompetent? Am I the incompetent one?

Thanks for any input.

Best,
Meghan

 

I would call them back immediately!

 

jmo, but that does sound like a low oil situation to me.

 

dito, but where did the 4qrts of oil go?

 

you just came back from the dealer and they filled it with oil and you have records of this?

Someone dropped the ball....you're at least a quart low from the picture.

 

My Cooper is Pepper White and I see no soot or evidence that it'd be burning oil. I also park it in a garage with a white tile floor -- I can promise that my husband would have a cow if 4 quarts of oil were on his garage floor.

I wasn't very clear in my photo, so here's an amendment: I think that the oil level is HIGH, not low. And yes, I just left the dealership with it, and I have service paperwork indicating that 4qts were added.

 

With the amended photo, I see that the oil looks high, could even be over one quart high. Perhaps they could remove some for you to bring the level down to more within range.

This is the only car I have ever owned that I run oil levels a little higher than in the manual as recommended by an ex Mini master mechanic. He says that about 4.5 to 4.75 quart is right and quietens the car somewhat. So far I have heeded his advise and it has been no problems. That would make it just a little above the full mark, by a 1/4 " or so. I am just saying this is something I do but if you are uncomfortable with it, do not follow.

Of course I check my oil every two weeks.

 

Much better and yes on those high and low marks. I agree, it's higher than it should be.

 

Well it certainly is quieter... but does this seem extreme to you?

Is there any possibility of damage from being over-filled? I'm not getting anywhere with my service advisor. When I asked him how it was possible that my car had limped into the dealership with what would have been 0.4qts of oil, he told me that "you use synthetic and if you ran completely out of oil your car would still run for a while without problems."

I'm not very mechanically savvy, but that sounds like a load of crap to me.

About the rattling noise -- is it likely that low oil is the cause rather than the timing chain issue that I've been reading about? Should I take it elsewhere to have the timing chain and tensioners checked out?

Thanks for all your input thus far -- you guys are great!

 

My opinion, based on your last picture.

Go back to the dealer and ask for a full oil change and new filter. Drain out all that overfill.

Not sure of the dealer, but that is bad service.

The timing chain issue is almost a now brainer from most good dealers.

Is your warranty expired or about to expire? Get this issue resolved before it expires, if you can.

Saw your post after mine posted. Your MINI SA service advisor is full of crap, I hope he/she is a temp. Cars need oil in the crankcase, not a film on the surfaces.

 

Too high of an oil level can damage your engine due to oil foaming and lack of lubrication. There is always a tolerance level built into these guidelines. The trick is to test these limits a little but still have a safety margin. It certainly looks like you could be been down only 2.5 q or so which is better news for you and your car assuming they did put in 4 q.

But I think the level you have is way too high. I would ask them to lower it.

 

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I've made an appointment with a different dealer to change the oil (again) and inspect the timing chain and tensioners. I'll let everyone know what comes out of it.

I knew that service advisor was yanking me. This was the same guy that told me that a metallic grinding noise (that turned out to be a warped rotor) was just ABS kicking in.

Thanks again, everyone!

 

Yikes! It does seem like they are trying to mask the problem by over filling the oil. I run about a pint over, as it does quiet the motor and runs smoother. Your situation is excessive.

Great documentation. I would talk to the service manager and show him your findings. Hopefully they will get a senior service mechanic to look at your Mini.

Good luck and please let us know the out come.

 

I guess I'll clarify my earlier post. The video you posted does not sound like a chain tensioner problem to me. I'd still have them check it if you take in to a dealer. But in the video, it doesn't seem to have the distinctive chain tensioner rattle that I've heard.

All of the knocking in the video sounds like the normal knocking of the engine, albeit louder than normal, probably due to the low oil condition. I don't think I've seen in the thread how many miles it had been driven since the last oil change? Or since the last time the oil was checked that you know the oil was topped off and full? Need that info to be able to assess what kind of oil consumption you are experiencing and whether it is outside what would be an acceptable rate.

On your dipstick, I think you really need to check it first thing in the morning when it is cold and everything has really drained. The dipstick and the tube it goes in is so sorry, that after ten minutes, I think you may just be getting oil off the tube - it may not really be as high as it seems.

Do you know (or anyone know) whether it took the full 4 quarts to fill it up? Or did you get charged (or it was put on the record) for a fourth quart, but they only used part of it?

 

The bigger question is where is your oil going? If it's not dripping, it's burning, and that aint good. If the car isn't under warranty, I'd go to an independent shop. Even if it is under warranty, might be good to have an independent check it out, your dealer shop sounds like a bunch of boneheads.

I can't see how being 4 quarts down wouldn't set off a check engine light, the lack of oil pressure should set one off. Something aint right.

 

Here's a tip, do NOT go by the recommended oil changes from MINI. Have your oil changed at 5000 miles. It's just good maintenance for the car and peace of mind.

 

If its burning excessively (this was my case, I filled it to between the low&high before my 120 mile trip to the dealer as thats all the syn oil i had left..., and they told me it was low when they got the car, so probably burnt 1/4 qt at least in 120 miles). I've had the tensioner TSB done at this point, but I was hearing rattling again, so I had them check the tensioner again. They said it was fine and it was just low on oil. They kept insisting I had the updated tensioner and should be fine. I told them to keep the car until they found out what was wrong with it, whether it be the noise or why I'm burning so much oil so quickly. Ended up being my valve cover was warped due to excessive heat and causing consumption. Replaced under warranty, been fine since. Though, I still have a rattling when its cold outside and on a cold start, so I may take the tensioner into my own hands now that i'm out of warranty.

 

WOW! Sounds like a terrible Dealership Service Advisor! Please keep us all posted since an overfill of oil can blow engine seals, foam the oil and cause it to loose pressure and you to fork over large amounts of $$$$$.

S.

 

Of all the posts in this thread, ...this^^appears to be the most rational, ..and asks some questions of the OP...that we have yet to know the answers.

..as stated by the OP, that oil level reading was done 10 minutes after turning off the car, you folks think that was ok to get a proper reading? ..and the 2nd pic of oil level reading "ammendment" was said to be a better quality pic...but didn't indicate if car had been allowed to cool down longer.

It IS possible that this car has a problem...and that should be looked into,

..however, it is also possible that the oil levels hadn't been checked/topped off since last oil change (as recommended in owners manual) ..and that could certainly lead to accelerated oil decline...especially in the "S" MINIs.

Seems odd, that without clarification on some of these tidbits of info (from the OP maybe?)..that so many folks are ready to declare that the dealership/SA is "full of crap"..."bunch of boneheads"...etc....

 

As others have said, yes, there is a potential for engine damage with the oil level either too high or too low.

Regarding your SA's statement about synthetic oil: you're instincts are spot on; he's just flat wrong. An engine without oil will not run for long. Period. It doesn't matter whether the oil that had been in the crankcase was conventional or synthetic. No oil = a seized engine. There's nothing magical about synthetic oil that allows an engine to run indefinitely with nothing but a hint of it remaining...

I find it difficult to accept that they had to put so much oil in to get the level correct, especially since you didn't get a "low oil" warning from the car... If you were 4 quarts low, you almost certainly would have had a warning light...

The short answer that I've gleaned from the forum is yes; low oil level can cause (for lack of a better term) a temporary rattle in the timing chain. At this point, it's probably fine; but it wouldn't hurt to have another dealer check things out, given your SA's apparent lack of understanding... If this rattling condition had been going on for a while, the chain itself could be stretched out of tolerance.

The truth is, any timing chain rattle is related to low oil pressure. The tensioner is, well, tensioned by oil pressure; so if oil pressure through the tensioner drops too low, the tensioner (and therefore, the timing chain) is not properly tensioned, and you get the rattle because of the loose chain. This can, over time, cause damage. However, low oil pressure through the tensioner has two root causes:

• Low oil level. If the oil level is low, oil pressure drops accordingly, and you have an improperly-tensioned timing chain and a rattle. Returning the oil to the proper level would alleviate such a condition.
• Defective tensioner. When the tensioner is defective, even the correct oil pressure does not properly tension the timing chain, and it rattles. The tensioner (and perhaps the chain and other parts) need to be replaced to correct this problem.

 

timfitz63

 

Oops! Pretend I didn't miss that statement...!

 

Thank you, jcanseyfd and J&M'sMini; you're worth your weights in carbon fiber.

While we still don't have convincing evidence to conclude this case, the earlier part of this thread seems to be an excellent example of the hair-trigger anti-dealer/pro-poster reaction often observed here.

Do I have this right? The Check Engine and Low Oil warning lights were on the day before taking the car in. A low oil level can cause timing chain rattle. Dealer reported the chain rattle was due to a very low oil level, so added oil. OP drove home and checked the oil level while the engine was still warm, finding oil on the dip stick above the Full mark. OP asks if Dealer is masking the chain rattle by over-filling the oil, so I assume there was reduced chain noise during the trip home.

I wonder what the oil level read this morning.

 

Hey everyone, this is my wife's MINI. We have allowed the car to cool down and this morning (after not driving it for 24 hours) I checked the oil again. The oil is still an inch higher than the fill mark on the dip stick.

To address other questions, yes, the engine ran great and was quiet on the way home from the dealer. I started it after checking the oil this morning and it was still quiet. Also, the car is under factory warranty for almost 2 more years and that includes maintenance.

The plan is to bring it to another dealer and have them check it out. The concern we have is finding out where all the oil goes. Is it normal to burn 2+ quarts in 5k miles on a Cooper S (keeping in mind a lot of city driving and some MTN runs)? Is the oil still too high or is an inch over the line acceptable when checking a cold engine?

We just want to make sure the car stays in great shape. Any input would be great and thanks to everyone who has replied so far.

 

Dpaine, that oil consumption is within specs as defined by Mini.