Broken Spark plug caused $8000 Engine damage
#26
2nd Gear
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
From: Falcon, CO (7240ft above sea level)
Call back Mini USA and ask to talk to a supervisor, they are trained to say that kind of crap. Get the next customer service reps name that says that to you and put in a complaint against them as well as the other one you talked to if you remember their name. The starts and ends with me BS doesn't hold water in 99% of the cases. You should have documented each time you called with the date, time, customer service reps name and a write up of what was talked about. A lot of places record ALL there calls (that's why you are told that at the beginning of the call). I think the dealer needs to prove to you they didn't cause the damage.
Last edited by Cotnballs2000; 01-13-2012 at 02:37 PM.
#27
Couldn't detonation damage the spark plug?
The knock sensors are supposed to tell the ECU to make the plug not fire if it detects detonation, but what if you had excessive detonation that even the knock sensors can't deal with? Like if the carbon deposits caused two or more hot spots that ignited the fuel way, way early? Or if you somehow bought gas with such low octane that it detonated as soon as you looked at it? Or what if the knock senors failed? Or the ECU failed to correctly respond to detonation?
Just wondering. Also, what is the theory for what caused all the carbon buildup?
I realize that the "bad gas theory" is the dealer's favorite one-size-fits-all explanation for anything they can't explain, but you know a stopped clock is right twice a day...
The knock sensors are supposed to tell the ECU to make the plug not fire if it detects detonation, but what if you had excessive detonation that even the knock sensors can't deal with? Like if the carbon deposits caused two or more hot spots that ignited the fuel way, way early? Or if you somehow bought gas with such low octane that it detonated as soon as you looked at it? Or what if the knock senors failed? Or the ECU failed to correctly respond to detonation?
Just wondering. Also, what is the theory for what caused all the carbon buildup?
I realize that the "bad gas theory" is the dealer's favorite one-size-fits-all explanation for anything they can't explain, but you know a stopped clock is right twice a day...
#28
The other thing that will destroy a valve and subsequently the spark plug is if it gets hit by the cylinder head if someone redlines the engine. Although the Mini has an electronic rev-limiter, downshifting to the wrong gear can still result in the piston head slapping the valve.
I don't mean to accuse, but would you have any reason to suspect he might have been abusing the car? Has the dealer given you the readout of the car's computer (which I believe would record if the engine has been overrevved)?
Stuff like this seldom "just happens". Someone screwed up - driver, mechanic, spark plug mfg, etc. - although given the number of variables and players, Columbo might not be able to get to the bottom of this one.
- Mark
Last edited by markjenn; 01-13-2012 at 03:55 PM.
#29
I don't think this has anything to do with mini usa. It is the dealer, or whoever took out the sparkplug to clean the cylinder with walnuts that is on the hook. They were just in the area doing work, the damage is uncommon and very easily be connected to the last guy who touched the spark plug.
I can't help but think you are just getting taken to the cleaners.
If you insist and find out exactly what was done to clean carbon, I think you will find that they just played with the plug a couple weeks ago. It is just too much of a coincidence that after this work you have catastrophic failure. If they are not the cause, I would make them prove it to me.
I can't help but think you are just getting taken to the cleaners.
If you insist and find out exactly what was done to clean carbon, I think you will find that they just played with the plug a couple weeks ago. It is just too much of a coincidence that after this work you have catastrophic failure. If they are not the cause, I would make them prove it to me.
#30
I simply can't believe the sparkplugs were not replaced when the carbon was cleaned! How could any mechanic make such a error in judgement at ~50K miles AND while cleaning everything else in the camber. It's a sad state of afairs indeed... Best of luck!
One quick question:
When the timing chain repairs were made did they replace ALL parts including: the chain, tensioner, gears, etc... ?
There's a post about that and all the part numbers are listed. They should ALL appear on your receipt for that repair.
One quick question:
When the timing chain repairs were made did they replace ALL parts including: the chain, tensioner, gears, etc... ?
There's a post about that and all the part numbers are listed. They should ALL appear on your receipt for that repair.
#31
Due to Saturn going out of business, I had to have my warranty work done at a Chevy store. I will tell you that while I was sitting in the service managers office talking to them about MY car, the Chevrolet field rep stopped by. The service manager grabbed the rep to talk to him about a Corvette they were working on and I was sitting there for the whole conversation. The Corvette was 5 months out of warranty (they have 5 year/100,000 mile powertrain). It had just over 40,000 miles on it and had dropped a valve in the motor. The service manager asked the field rep if he would consider some "good will" help with the car. They left to go look at the car while I waited. When service manager came back I asked how it went, and he told me Chevrolet was going to cover 90% of the repair cost, customer 10%. The rep told him this should not have happened, car was stock and well cared for. My best friends daughter lost the transmission in her Cavalier just out of warranty, and GM helped them also (I do not know the details of how much).
I am here because my wife desparately wants a MINI, and I am trying to learn what to look out for before buying one for her. We dumped her Hyundai Sonata because I got tired of Hyundai threatening to void our warranty every time we took the car in for something (which was ALL THE TIME). I am terribly sorry to read of the OP problems.
I am here because my wife desparately wants a MINI, and I am trying to learn what to look out for before buying one for her. We dumped her Hyundai Sonata because I got tired of Hyundai threatening to void our warranty every time we took the car in for something (which was ALL THE TIME). I am terribly sorry to read of the OP problems.
#32
#33
Due to Saturn going out of business, I had to have my warranty work done at a Chevy store. I will tell you that while I was sitting in the service managers office talking to them about MY car, the Chevrolet field rep stopped by. The service manager grabbed the rep to talk to him about a Corvette they were working on and I was sitting there for the whole conversation. The Corvette was 5 months out of warranty (they have 5 year/100,000 mile powertrain). It had just over 40,000 miles on it and had dropped a valve in the motor. The service manager asked the field rep if he would consider some "good will" help with the car. They left to go look at the car while I waited. When service manager came back I asked how it went, and he told me Chevrolet was going to cover 90% of the repair cost, customer 10%. The rep told him this should not have happened, car was stock and well cared for. My best friends daughter lost the transmission in her Cavalier just out of warranty, and GM helped them also (I do not know the details of how much).
I am here because my wife desparately wants a MINI, and I am trying to learn what to look out for before buying one for her. We dumped her Hyundai Sonata because I got tired of Hyundai threatening to void our warranty every time we took the car in for something (which was ALL THE TIME). I am terribly sorry to read of the OP problems.
I am here because my wife desparately wants a MINI, and I am trying to learn what to look out for before buying one for her. We dumped her Hyundai Sonata because I got tired of Hyundai threatening to void our warranty every time we took the car in for something (which was ALL THE TIME). I am terribly sorry to read of the OP problems.
#35
Due to Saturn going out of business, I had to have my warranty work done at a Chevy store. I will tell you that while I was sitting in the service managers office talking to them about MY car, the Chevrolet field rep stopped by. The service manager grabbed the rep to talk to him about a Corvette they were working on and I was sitting there for the whole conversation. The Corvette was 5 months out of warranty (they have 5 year/100,000 mile powertrain). It had just over 40,000 miles on it and had dropped a valve in the motor. The service manager asked the field rep if he would consider some "good will" help with the car. They left to go look at the car while I waited. When service manager came back I asked how it went, and he told me Chevrolet was going to cover 90% of the repair cost, customer 10%. The rep told him this should not have happened, car was stock and well cared for. My best friends daughter lost the transmission in her Cavalier just out of warranty, and GM helped them also (I do not know the details of how much).
I am here because my wife desparately wants a MINI, and I am trying to learn what to look out for before buying one for her. We dumped her Hyundai Sonata because I got tired of Hyundai threatening to void our warranty every time we took the car in for something (which was ALL THE TIME). I am terribly sorry to read of the OP problems.
I am here because my wife desparately wants a MINI, and I am trying to learn what to look out for before buying one for her. We dumped her Hyundai Sonata because I got tired of Hyundai threatening to void our warranty every time we took the car in for something (which was ALL THE TIME). I am terribly sorry to read of the OP problems.
#36
I'd get a MINI if you want a cheap, reliable, fun car that will last.
#37
I would really like to know exactly how this walnut blasting is done without filling up a cylinder with shells . Unless care is taken to make sure all valves are closed (may be impossible on all simultaneously) then this is asking for trouble. Fact is walnut shells are quite hard enough to break a spark plug so I would be looking at this as the most likely cause.
#38
I would really like to know exactly how this walnut blasting is done without filling up a cylinder with shells . Unless care is taken to make sure all valves are closed (may be impossible on all simultaneously) then this is asking for trouble. Fact is walnut shells are quite hard enough to break a spark plug so I would be looking at this as the most likely cause.
#39
Can a piston break my spark plug electrode?
Finally got all 4 spark plugs back from Scottsdale Mini after they replaced my engine. Went to Ontario Mini and shown the spark plugs to the service manager and was told the broken spark plug ground electrode was due timing jumped caused the piston to smashed into the spark plug and they’re not responsible for the cause of my blown engine. Even though the broken spark plug shown no signs of being mashed or any damaged to the positive electrode and the break was very clean as shown in the photos. Can someone explain to me how can the piston come into contact with the spark plug and caused it to break?
#40
That's up to them to explain. I don't see how it could happen, as the spark plugs do not move within the combustion chamber. They're always in the same place, so if the pistons could ever hit them in their regular travel they would hit the plugs every single time.
So it sounds like they're feeding you a big ration of BS to get out of having to pay for the engine work.
So it sounds like they're feeding you a big ration of BS to get out of having to pay for the engine work.
#41
Two very remote (and I'm not even sure they are 100% possibile) possibilities: crank bearing (which could explain the timing jump) or piston rod (and/or rod bearing) are shot. Over-revving when downshifting can damage the rods. It's not inconceivable that it could also be related to the timing issue too. If there was actual contact between piston and plug, there will be a mark on the piston.
Otherwise foreign debris inside the cylinder hit it. If so, it's probably still in there. Have a look with a scope. Like I said before, if the engine was over-revved, this could be related to valve damage that shed debris into the cylinder. This may have struck the plug.
Could also be due to detonation resulting in a bent plug or an incorrectly fitted plug.
In any case, your entire sequence of events is strange. When you say:
"Drive the for few days and it ran fine and last Sunday my nephew drive it from Chino to Arizona and noticed the check engine light came on"
This is not how a plug would catastrophically fail. You'd hear it and feel it, it wouldn't be a simple CEL light coming on. Furthermore, were there debris in there after the walnut blast the problem would have occurred when you initially picked up the car after the walnut cleaning. It certainly wouldn't have "run fine for a few days".
You probably won't like what I have to say and I understand you're upset, but realistically I don't see how this is the garage's problem. According to you, the car was fine until your nephew got into it. If I were you, I'd be talking to your nephew and checking whether or not the ECU registered a redline.
Otherwise foreign debris inside the cylinder hit it. If so, it's probably still in there. Have a look with a scope. Like I said before, if the engine was over-revved, this could be related to valve damage that shed debris into the cylinder. This may have struck the plug.
Could also be due to detonation resulting in a bent plug or an incorrectly fitted plug.
In any case, your entire sequence of events is strange. When you say:
"Drive the for few days and it ran fine and last Sunday my nephew drive it from Chino to Arizona and noticed the check engine light came on"
This is not how a plug would catastrophically fail. You'd hear it and feel it, it wouldn't be a simple CEL light coming on. Furthermore, were there debris in there after the walnut blast the problem would have occurred when you initially picked up the car after the walnut cleaning. It certainly wouldn't have "run fine for a few days".
You probably won't like what I have to say and I understand you're upset, but realistically I don't see how this is the garage's problem. According to you, the car was fine until your nephew got into it. If I were you, I'd be talking to your nephew and checking whether or not the ECU registered a redline.
Finally got all 4 spark plugs back from Scottsdale Mini after they replaced my engine. Went to Ontario Mini and shown the spark plugs to the service manager and was told the broken spark plug ground electrode was due timing jumped caused the piston to smashed into the spark plug and they’re not responsible for the cause of my blown engine. Even though the broken spark plug shown no signs of being mashed or any damaged to the positive electrode and the break was very clean as shown in the photos. Can someone explain to me how can the piston come into contact with the spark plug and caused it to break?
Last edited by MiniDeLux; 02-21-2012 at 05:32 AM.
#42
A little search I did turned up three possibilities for a piston hitting the spark plug. One, bad rod let the piston travel farther than it should have. Seems unlikely. Two, if the spark plugs were installed incorrectly, they may have been set deeper than was proper resulting in them hitting the piston. I believe earlier in the thread you indicated they had taken plugs out when doing some other work, so this seems like a possibility. Three, if the timing is off causing improper detonation, it may be possible the detonation was strong enough to damage the plug without an actual strike with the piston occurring. Would have to look at the actual piston head for evidence of contact. This sounds like the reason (sort of) you got from the SA in blaming it on the timing jump.
#43
A little search I did turned up three possibilities for a piston hitting the spark plug. One, bad rod let the piston travel farther than it should have. Seems unlikely. Two, if the spark plugs were installed incorrectly, they may have been set deeper than was proper resulting in them hitting the piston. I believe earlier in the thread you indicated they had taken plugs out when doing some other work, so this seems like a possibility. Three, if the timing is off causing improper detonation, it may be possible the detonation was strong enough to damage the plug without an actual strike with the piston occurring. Would have to look at the actual piston head for evidence of contact. This sounds like the reason (sort of) you got from the SA in blaming it on the timing jump.
#44
Also, someone mentioned they don't know why/or it should be discovered why there is carbon build up in the first place... I'd suggest reading through threads on NAM and doing a general search on the web for direct injection engines (which is what the R56 has). Carbon build up is a huge issue in our cars, and MINI knows it. Without port injection, the intake valves, manifold, TB all get built up with carbon from oil blow by within the system. While this is nothing new for cars, the difference in DI engines is fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber, thus not allowing for the gas to clean your intake valves etc of carbon.
As for the OP, I'm surprised you just jumped and had them change the engine without much hesitation. I would have kept fighting until they came up with a resolution that favored myself... mostly because it had been in there for work dealing with related components only a few weeks before. They never told you that over-revving was recorded, as that'd be an easy culprit to blame on if they saw it. If they say timing jumped.... then why would it have jumped? Didn't they just replace the timing chain/tensioner?? Is that not directly related to timing? I'd be digging deeper if I were you and not gone ahead with the fix so soon... Thats a large chunk of change.. =\
#45
Don't understand your theory #2, spark plugs installed incorrectly, set too deep. How can you install a plug too deep? You screw it down on a seat, and torque it. The plug can only go in to the point the where the plug seat meets the head seat. The only way to get a plug deeper into a combustion chamber is to install a longer (wrong) plug and the piston would hit that plug as soon as you start the engine not magically a few days later.
#46
I'm not real sure. The various threads I've found usually indicated it would be something like the plug got cross-threaded which then allowed it to extend further into the cylinder. I would think that would be a pretty easy thing to see though once you pulled the plug (much less feel when installing the plug). And like you, I would think if that were the case, the strike would occur the very first time the engine started up.
If the plugs are the correct parts for the car then cross threading will not result in seating the plugs any deeper into the cylinder than proper threading and would most likely result in the spark plug being unable to completely seat as designed. Typically anything that you cross thread is started slight askew and "seems" to fit at first but suddenly becomes very difficult to tighten all the way.
#48
Finally got all 4 spark plugs back from Scottsdale Mini after they replaced my engine. Went to Ontario Mini and shown the spark plugs to the service manager and was told the broken spark plug ground electrode was due timing jumped caused the piston to smashed into the spark plug and they’re not responsible for the cause of my blown engine. Even though the broken spark plug shown no signs of being mashed or any damaged to the positive electrode and the break was very clean as shown in the photos. Can someone explain to me how can the piston come into contact with the spark plug and caused it to break?
Three, if the timing is off causing improper detonation, it may be possible the detonation was strong enough to damage the plug without an actual strike with the piston occurring. Would have to look at the actual piston head for evidence of contact. This sounds like the reason (sort of) you got from the SA in blaming it on the timing jump.
Didn't look back over this thread, but did the valves hit the pistons?
I've only had one engine "blow up" on me over the years. It was a racing Honda SL70 set up for TT and Scrambles. Had domed pistons, big valves, massive cam and very tight tolerences. This thing was pushed to the limits; running nitro-alcohol blend.
Slaped a license plate on it one day after school as a teenager and headed to Saddleback Park in Orange County, CA for some track time. On the way home I ended up racing a Honda 750 down Champman hill. Yes, a 70cc racing a 750cc. Was in the lead until it exploded!!!
I over rev'd it and put the valves through the piston. One valve broke off and was fused into the piston dome. Oops!
Funny memory now, but not at the time. Almost went down hard on the pavement when it blew...
ADDED: Hey Satang, did you ever get a report from the "black box" CPU telling you what was happening at the time it went?
Last edited by BlackIce; 02-22-2012 at 08:33 AM.
#49
#50