So this is my first post. It will be lengthy, so sorry in advance if you have a short attention span I searched and searched but no one has had these two issues (from what I've seen) at the same time. may be related, may not be.


Anywho, I have a 2005 MCS cabrio with the JCW package. Bought it with a blown head gasket, and it had set for over a year. Milled the head, replaced the gasket (thicker gasket), replaced the supercharger (non-jcw, just upgraded to the 17% wmw pulley). Got it all together, and it exhibited a very long crank before starting. (about 30-45 seconds before it would start to hit). Checked gas, and it looked bad, so I drained it all out and replaced with good gas. Still exhibited the extended crank condition. Once started, it runs fine, but when you come off the throttle coming to a stop sign or stop light, it will die (popping the clutch starts it right back up). If it dies and it's warmed up, the extended crank is even worse (45-60 sec). I know this is hard on the starter and the battery, but I don't care....well I do care, I'm just so FED UP with this thing...back to the story...Checked compression. had low compression on all cylinders (60-60-60-90 for cylinders 1-4 respectively). Performed leak-down test, and it revealed rings were leaking. Pulled the head back off, re-ringed the pistons, honed the cylinders, and replaced the rod bearings while I was there.


Last night got it all back together, went to start it up, and the same condition occurred. starts quicker (10-20seconds instead of 30-45) but still not normal. Also still stalls when coming to a stop, and harder to start the warmer it is. The only DTC's set the first time I got it running were a fuel system rich code, (P0172? IIRC) and a p1688 (again, IIRC). Figured the rich condition was due to incomplete burning of the fuel due to low compression. didn't know what to make of the 1688. No codes yet this time around, but haven't driven it more than 3 miles. I'm at my wit's end on this one. I'm new to Mini's and this one has really soured my idea of them. That's why I decided to post. Anyone have any idea where to start? My next plan of action was to check fuel pressure, and then double check my vacuum lines. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

 

Try another compression test.
Did you do anything to the valve train either time the engine was apart? These engines are known to fry exhaust valves on occasion.

 

When the head was off, the machine shop did a valve job and replaced the valve seals. He said the guides were in good shape, as were the valves themselves. Will check compression and see what it comes out to be. Just went and drove it around for about 15 minutes in stop-and-go and then a stint on the freeway. Did good til it got warmed up, then wanted to die on the off-ramp and when I finally parked it, I turned it off. When I immediately tried to start it up again, it wouldn't hit. just turn over. Scan tool said that I was cranking @ about 250rpms. I would have guessed it should be higher (say 4-600 rpms?). Haven't seen what spec is supposed to be, but whenever it finally wants to start, it starts to "hit" (fire) and you see the rpms go up. So maybe it's not turning over quickly because it's not firing...and here we go chasing our tail again...ALLDATA doesn't give any real diag for a no-start. It's aggravating!

 

250 rpms during cranking doesn't sounds too off base.
It's probably worthwhile to perform an ECU reset (search the forum for a DIY). It often solves a lot of engine issues. If that doesn't help then check fuel pressure.

 

Dying at the lights is usually the fuel pump. The S has a different fuel pump and so far I've not found the OEM so you need to get it from MINI.

 

Or MAYBE the fuel PSI regulator.... Located on the fuel rail, under the ic...has a small Vac line attached to it ..the heat can bake them...and the vac line can come unplugged.

 

Fuel pressure at idle/while cranking is 50-55psi. Also, popping the clutch it starts right up. I don't know if that would help at all...I thought fuel pump too, but the pressure was dead on, so didn't go any further there. it also held as long as I had it hooked up (10-20 minutes). FPR is hooked up (AFAIK) I'll check and make sure it holds vacuum. I believe it is fuel related, but I'm leaning more towards injector(s) not firing. If I researched it correctly, injectors are controlled by the Crank sensor, correct? The fact that it is harder to start the warmer it is, makes me think that it is in something electrical. resistance raises, and something isn't getting the correct signal. Which also sounds fuel pump likely, but again, pressure is there. Maybe I ought to hook up the gauge and drive it, see what it's doing when I come to stop lights...It's just hard to do in a crowded town when you don't know if you can keep it running or if you can get it started back up.


Things I'm testing next:
Compression (just to double check if for some reason it's still not up on compression)
injectors signals for on/off operation (noid light)
injectors for clogging, electrical resistance, and/or leaking


I will post what I find. I'm not going to just throw parts at it...can't afford that.

 

Did you clean your MAP sensors? And when was the last time you changed the fuel filter?

 

Rustyman311, Cleaned the MAP sensors when I first had the issue. Haven't changed the fuel filter. Wouldn't a plugged/clogged fuel filter give a low fuel pressure reading? I've only owned this for about a month, and just got it to where it's even able to run. I don't have any previous owner's history, nor do I know what has been maintained/changed before me. Came into it kind of blind. Experience is a great teacher, though I usually don't listen to the first part of the lesson.


Oh, and btw the last time I had it out (a total of 4 times? lol) it set the p0172 again for fuel system rich. For anyone who has this generation, what's a good MAP signal reading going to be at idle? Might give me a direction if mine aren't reading correctly. And does the computer just put out the MAP signal for the after-supercharger sensor, the before-supercharger sensor, or a calculation of both signals? I'm used to ONE MAP sensor, not two. Thank you so much for everyone's input! It's helping just being able to bounce off some of my ideas with ya.

 

Well a new filter is like 40$? How did the plugs look on the ignition box? Sometimes they get pretty corroded up. And you said it stalls at stop lights? Have you ridden with the fuel pressure gauge taped to the windshield to see what the pressure does at the stop lights?

 

Does it run well (no ignition missing) when driving? Common problem is corroded contacts at the coil.
P0172 could be a vacuum leak. Check the intercooler boots. Also if you where playing with the MAP sensors check the plastic tube/lines going to the sensor near the thermostat housing.

 

I didn't run fuel pressure while i ran it around. Today I started with checking the basics-i.e. compression first. Didn't need to go any further, because my cylinders were still the same compression readings. 60-60-60-90. This is leading me to believe that my crank/cam timing is off. NOW, the timing mark/TDC trick that I used was on another forum, but this is what I did:

Set #1 at TDC.
Take cam gear/sprocket, and line up the big line (next to the numbers and the green or orange dot) with the flat part of the back of the head. the "timing" arrow should be pointing at the #1 intake rocker arm or thereabouts. As long as the line is flat with the head, you're set.
Put it back together, and viola, you're done.

I've taken it apart and put it back together at least 12 times (seriously) to make sure my timing was where it was supposed to be, and to verify it hadn't for some reason jumped time (which it never has). Timing mark is right on with TDC....Is this really not a good way to time these motors, or am I just doing it wrong? valves are closed on #1 (i mean, it does start eventually so it can't be far off it is off any. But with me having just rebuilt this whole daggum motor (well almost) short of pulling the crank pulley (which I don't have the special tool for) there is no reason to have low compression, especially the exact same numbers. I'm pretty certain it's timing. Is there any getting around setting it the factory way? I've done lots of searching, and the aforementioned way of setting it is the only one I've found other than the factory way.

install

 

Get the cam timing tool. They have them on amazon for about 100$....your compression should be way higher than that as well. And these engines aren't timed off TDC #1, if I remember correctly when you use the timing tool and remove the head all the pistons are about equal with each other on their stroke....I have a book let me see what your compression is supposed to be and I'll relay back to you!

 

I checked on the compression numbers and you are wicked low! Should be 131-196psi...there shouldn't be more than a 7 psi deviation between the adjacent cylinders. What part of the country are you located in?

 

Yeah...
Something is not right if you are STILL getting the SAME compression number POST ringjob...as preringjob.....

 

I am at a loss. I've just put it up for sale. I put it a tooth counter-clockwise, and it started very consistently after that. I went to drive it, and as soon as it got warmed up, it started exhibiting the same condition of extended crank/no start. Checked for injector firing, noid lights firing like they should. No injectors leaking at the tips. All ohmed out at 12.4 ohms except one was at 12.3. You can smell it running very rich. Plugs are black (rich) on the 4 prongs. the electrode itself is grayish brown. I would think that a vacuum leak would cause it to have a lean code, not a rich code. every other car I've worked on exhibited a lean code with a vac. leak. rich is usually dirty maf sensor or clogged air filter. Anywho, I am emotionally spent on this. I've tried for over a month to figure it out, and it's just not worth it anymore. As fun as it is to drive when it does run, I need a reliable vehicle more than a fun vehicle. thanks for all your help guys.

 

Rustyman311, I'm located in Cookeville, TN. I agree my numbers are really low. I've heard conflicting thoughts on whether the w11 motor is interference or non interference. If it is an interference motor, it's possible I've bent some valves. When I first put the head on at the beginning of this project, I timed the valves wrong by about 30* if I were to guess. I put the arrow pointing straight up at 12 o'clock when it was a TDC. I turned it over by hand two turns, didn't hear/feel any binding, and put it back together. Didn't start, so I researched timing some more and found the cam sprocket line with the head timing trick. Reset the timing, and still wouldn't start. The pistons didn't have any marring or places where it looked like it had hit a valve, so it doesn't seem likely to me that i had bent any valves, but i guess anything is possible. What do you think?

 

Or maybe my compression tester is bad...haha

 

Any chance the prior owner has the car custom tuned ...yanked parts off it to see...
And now it runs like crap...
For $125 getting it flashed at the dealer would set it back to stock...
Any chance of A photo of what the injectors look like...stock should be black with tan unless it is a jcw210 car, then black with blue..... The smells like it is rich might be the clue....

 

You just wouldn't think it would run as well as it does if A)timing was off, and B) if it had bent valve(s). That's why I'm so stressed about it. By all means, it SHOULD run, SHOULD start fine, and SHOULD stay running! But it doesn't. Ugh. I mean, I am a Toyota ASE Certified Tech. So I'm not an idiot. I just am an idiot when it comes to this car. Start with the basics, that's my motto. Toyotas are a lot easier to diagnose and to fix. I bought this because my dad has an r53, and always talks about just how fun they are to drive, and it seemed like a fun proposition: cheap car+easy fix=cheap fun. well none of it ended up being true It was cheap at first, but after all the parts and lost time on this thing, it's cost a lot. And it hasn't been an easy fix...

Kind of a funny story, one of the guys I work with was asking me what I was thinking about buying. When I told him I was thinking about buying a Mini Cooper with a blown head gasket, I turned around and said "what would you do?" He looked at me, and said, "I would rather take a sledgehammer, tie it to a tree limb, swing it and let it hit me in the nuts." I laughed, and said "I wouldn't." Now looking back, I think that would have felt better than my current situation...haha

 

The injectors are stock JCW, Blue and black. Don't know if I had said before, but it has the factory-installed JCW package. The fact that it gets worse as it warms up makes me think it's something electrical. I mean, for all I know it could be the computer heating up. It just seeme like resistance increases with the heat, and causes it to not run. But what is it??? IDK

 

You may want to give Way at WayMotorWorks a call.
http://www.waymotorworks.com/

He is always very helpful and if there is person the earth that can figure it out it is Way.
Also, he is just down in Atlanta so if need be you could trailer the car down to him.

Good luck

 

I may call him. Ok, so I know that our valves are non-adjustable hydraulic lifters. Is it possible that they are holding the valves open a bit from it sitting? The rocker arms were not present when the machine shop checked the head out and did a valve job, but I assume(d) that the automatic adjusters would take up/let out the slack on each valve as needed. I don't know that it is in the valves, it's just...well, timing is on (AFIK), and the bottom end is new, so that leaves the head. IDK. just a thought.

 

They are non interference. Do you have a boost gauge on the car by chance? How much you askin for the car?

 

I do not have a boost gauge on the car. So I used my deductive reasoning. If this thing still has low compression after rebuilding the bottom end, the only other place it could be was in the valves. Either by timing or by something being wrong with the valves themselves. Thanks for the reply about these being non-interference. Because I had set the timing off in the beginning, I thought for sure that bent valves was the only obvious culprit.

Suspecting the valves, I removed the valve cover, took off the timing chain, and removed the rocker arms so that I knew w/o a doubt that every valve was closed. I then took about 3ml of rubbing alcohol, and with a syringe(spelling?) and a vacuum hose, squirted the alcohol into the intake valve port in the head, to see if there was any leakage. I then removed the spark plugs to see if there was any making its way past the valve seat/valve assy. In less than 3-5 minutes, all the alcohol had made its way past. This was for cylinder one. I then proceeded to do it for cylinder number two as well, with the same result. I later pressurized the cylinder and watched the valve bubble (almost emulsifying, not slow bubbling) the alcohol that i had just squirted on the backside of the valve.

This led me to believe that my valves had bent, since all cylinders were exhibiting the same low compression. SO, today I took the head back off, and proceeded to remove the cylinder one valves for inspection. Upon removing, I did not see any obvious signs of the valve being bent. Such as, a bent valve. hahaha The easiest way I found to check if the valve was bent was to let it roll around on a flat surface (my freezer lid). If it was bent, it would have stopped at the place where the bend was. Obviously, it didn't stop. Just kept rolling around 'til gravity stopped it.

I then proceeded to look at the valve where it meets the head, and the valve seat where the valve, er, um, seats. It looks pretty bad. The machine shop that milled my head also said that they did a valve job on it. I've never seen a head right after a valve job, but am pretty sure that these valves and seats have never been touched. What I am suspecting happened is the guy removed the valves, put new valve stem seals in (if he even did that...) and then put the valves back in, without regard for which valve went in which hole. i.e. they aren't seated. No lapping, nothing.

So Monday I'll be making a call to the machine shop, and talk to him about it. I have spent well over $500 chasing this ghost, racking my brain trying to figure out what the heck is going on, fully trusting that everything I paid HIM to do had been done, and been done correctly, and believing that this vehicle had some other problem amiss other than head problems. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt (he is like 60+ years old) that maybe he just forgot. But I'm also really wanting another more reputable (and costly) machine shop in town to do it. Because I know it will be done correctly. This is the first time I've used him, and it will be the last. He was cheaper (are you seeing a trend with my penny pinching?) and that's why I went with him. That, and my friend highly recommended him. I had it up for $7500 or best offer before I found out that it needed the head pulled again. and now that I have the head pulled, I took it down because I can't sell it in pieces. well I can, but I won't. Unless someone wants it...hehe...