Hi all!

I know there are a lot of posts out there on this subject and maybe I'm just being stubborn because I don't want to spend money I don't have to!

Went to go to work this morning and my car initially started then stalled after a few seconds. After that initial fire it would cranked but would not start (not even a cough). In the past the car has started a number of times then stalled after a few seconds but has always started again usually starting little hard and running rough for a few seconds. The last several times this happened I cycled the key switch several times to "let the fuel pump build up pressure" (I have always put this off as possibly a weak fuel pump, the car is old afterall) and it seemed to start easier/better after doing that.

Here is what I know.

Car is a stock '02 justa with 6 speed conversion (only mod - necessary when 5 speed blew a hole in the case). Car has around 190K miles.

1. I can hear fuel pump run and the fuel rail has fuel in it (pressure is 55-58 psi)
2. I am not getting any spark from the coil when putting a grounded lead next to the coil posts.
3. I do not see any light when using a grounded test light on the signal side of the injector harness during cranking (I assumed the light would come on and off with each pulse).
4. Using the tESt mode on the tach, I can see engine RPM when cranking (using 7.2 to view "Actual engine revs")
5. Using the tESt mode on the tach, I get 4 codes as follows:
14.0 - 672000
14.1 - 112000
14.2 - 642000
14.3 - 652000
14.4 - 122000
I have no idea what these are and I have not been able to find any posts related to these codes.
6. No OBDII codes
7. All fuses are OK and relays seem to be OK (have swapped relays around and could feel them clicking on an off).

So now for my questions:

1. I have read that EWS will cause a no start but in my Bently manual it says the car will not crank if the EWS does not recognize the keys. I have tried both my keys with no luck. Chime sounds correct with key in or around switch. Could this still be the issue?

2. I have read that the Crank Sensor will cause this issue. However since I am able to see Engine RPMs from the test menu does that say my Crank Sensor is OK?

3. I have read some posts that say the CAM sensor may cause similar issues and some that say it will not keep it from starting.... Which is true???

Problem is I have $0 money to spend right now, so I don't want to just run out and buy very expensive sensors just to find out it is the ECM or EWS that will also cost $$$!

Anyone around the Daytona, FL area with some better diagnostic equip???

Any further help is greatly appreciated!!!

 

Check your major grounds.

Crank sensor would definitely keep you from starting as it is a trigger sensor.

Those codes you pulled aren't much to go on you need to find a quality scan tool to pull either the P-codes or manufacture codes that are stored in the DME.

A faulty EWS can cause a crank no start, but usually when the EWS is faulty you don't get signal voltage to the starter.

Post back with the codes you pull from the DME and further information can be provided.

 

nkfry thanks for responding.

I have a simple OBDII scan tool that only shows engine codes. There were no codes using this scanner.

I don't have a "good" scan tool that will let me look at all the modules in the car and don't know anyone around here that does. I guess that would have to be a dealer or service garage.

I did check the signals with my multimeter from both the CAM and CRANK sensors and both show voltage change during crank. I checked for power and ground at the sensors and both had 12V and ground. I am assuming that both are good.

I am going to go through and check all my grounds again, but I do not see that as being an issue.

Any Idea what my next step would be? Replace the DME? ouch!!!

Thanks again!

 

A DVOM check only tells so much, for a proper reading on the cam/crank correlation you need an oscilloscope. Voltage to the sensors is only part of the story, what are the signal voltages being sent to the DME?

Unfortunately you need to spend some money and have the car plugged into a quality scan tool, there are codes that many generic readers don't pull. Don't replace anything until you've done diagnostic, that is how you will end up with wasted money in the end.

 

Yes, you are 100% right. I have seen sensors that put out garbage that you would never pick up with a simple meter. I guess I was trying to make myself believe that they are OK.

Unfortunatly I just moved to Florida a little over 3 yrs ago and have not made any good connections down here, so I don't have any friends that I can call to bring a good scanner over. If I was still in Northern Indiana (Brrrr), no problem!

Thanks again and I will post as soon as I have any more...

 

No problem, you could try Euro Specialists in Longwood. They have pretty good reviews, and are only about an hour cruise from Port Orange.

Their phone number is: 407-678-1505

Address: 2350 South US Highway 17-92 Longwood, FL 32750

 

get this scanner :


This will help you read the stored codes and it will pick up faults in the modules.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ini-broke.html




Sunshine MINI club is down there and they are a great group that can steer you towards a good indy shop.

 

OK, so I was able to hook a laptop up using INPA and came up with this error...


I am not sure what this means.

Also, looking at the values of the EWS, if I'm reading it right it says that the car is immobilized. If that is the case than that is certianly why it will not start. Here is a pic of the screen...


Can anyone tell me what this all means?

Thanks!

 

OK, well if anyone else comes looking for an answer to the same type of problem here is how I fixed it!

Using INPA from my cars DME menu I had to run "Reset Immobilisation Seed". After that vroom!

All is good!

 

Good work and all for Free.

 

Thanks for the update, so the immobilizer lost signal ?

 

Well, I am not sure... The digital signals I posted earlier were from the ECU menu. I am assuming that the EWS quit telling the ECU (DME) that it was OK to start the car. The car was chiming like the EWS recognized the keys...

Here is what "enda320" over on bimmerforums.com told me...


"If you haven't changed anything, same DME/EWS, then it's likely just to be the rolling code.

This goes out of sync if the battery dies when trying to start, or the ECU is disconnected unexpectedly.
The "reset immo seed" would seem to be the correct one, although I've never heard of them being called that.

Learn immo seed would be ISN pairing, that is only for a new virgin ECU. You should have the same ISN in both.
The reset option is the one that resets the rolling codes and can be done as often as you like."


It was his post that made me feel "safe" enough to try it.

Now when I read the same digital values, everything is off or in the NO status.

Not sure if that clears anything up?

Something that just dawned on me is that when the car did this, it had started then stalled. Kinda makes me wonder if that is the DME loosing power for some reason... Wish I knew!

Thanks All! Great to be able to drive her again though!!!

 

Could you explain INPA a little for a noob? Where can I get it? What cables do I need? Thanks!

 

INPA is basically the same software that BMW use to diagnose and reset codes. It is BMW software! INPA will let you see and reset codes that normal OBDII scanners will not!!! INPA will also let you see live data from the modules in your car (see my earlier post showing the digital values from the EWS).

There is a LOT of great info out there on both INPA (Diagnostics tool) and NCSExpert (programming tool). They both are readily available and can be used with a USB to OBDII cable (which I bought for around $30). Oh and you will need a laptop.

Here are a few good threads on NCSExpert. If you get NCSExpert, INPA is a breeze!

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...beginners.html

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...de-add-in.html

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-yourself.html

Also, you can go to www.bimmerforums.com where there is a lot of info on both (although it is mainly focused on BMW's and not Mini's). Just do some searches both here on NAM and on bimmerforums! It's a lot of reading (and by a lot I mean I spent days reading thread after thread)!!!

WARNING... You can do some really cool stuff with both INPA and NCSExpert but you can also really screw things up!

Hope this helps!

 

Awesome...Thanks! I'll get to reading.

 

I had an issue with the Wrong EWS code also. Remembered your thread and was able to reset it. Still getting the other codes intermittently. Sometimes I can clear them and it'll start, sometimes I can't clear them, sometimes I can clear them and it will not start. I traced wires best I can, but I'd like to find out what I can do to test/troubleshoot things. Anything I posted in my thread and pasted below jog anything in your memory of anything you may have crossed over that might help.


Thanks!

 

Brochacho, You are correct... There is not much info that I have found on trouble shooting using INPA for Mini's. There is more on BMW's on the BMW forums but you will have to try and relate that information back to Mini's because the screens and info aren't the same...


looking at the readings in your codes it appears that your TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) may be off. It is showing a value of 20.62deg and KOEO (Key On Engine Off) mine reads around 8deg. A bad TPS might make the car start hard, but I would think it would still start.

I would check that just to be sure. You can use INPA or a volt meter to check the voltage of the TPS at idle and check that it is changing.

To use INPA start by selecting the engine computer and go to (I believe) Status. From there select Analog Values and Manufact Test. The Throttle Position Voltage 1 should be around 1V (KOEO) (mine is .89V). The Accelerator Pedal 1 value should be close to the TPS Value (mine is .7V). When you push the pedal to the floor the Accelerator pedal 1 value should increase to (in theory 5V) (mine is 3.89V).

Not sure why you would be seeing a low voltage code unless one of your relays is not working. (which could cause a no start...) From the Manufact Test screen you should be able to press F2 (Engine) and go to F3 (Engine 3). There you will see "Battery Voltage after Relay" and "Battery Voltage after Key". The "Battery Voltage after Relay" should be 12.5-13 volts(battery voltage). The "Battery Voltage after key" should be 0.00 until you start the car then it should read 14+/-Volts. Also from this screen you can see the value of the TPS degrees and "Driver Demand", "Driver Demand 1" and "Driver Demand 2". The driver demand (all of them) should be 0.00 without your foot on the pedal. With the pedal all the way down they should read 100%.

Hope this helps a little!!!

 

That helps a lot! I'll look into this first thing when I get home from work in the morning. I'll post more screenshots to compare to. Maybe we can create a detailed list of what a known good car should be reading.

Thanks again!

 

Ok...Got time to check it out. One question, where is the TPS sensor? I assume it's in the throttle body. I hope it's not having a problem, I just replaced the throttle body.

Anyway, here are the values w/ Key On Engine Off:






Analog Values





...with pedal to floor





Battery voltages after Relay and Key

 

Quick question...How did you know what "Battery Voltage after Key" should be. From Beemer forums or a manual? Would the Bently manual tell me? Would it instruct how to troubleshoot "Battery Voltage after Key"?

Thanks for your help so far! I am now lost...

 

Wow, I am so sorry I just saw your 2 posts! I have not been on the computer for a while (actually my wife has been hogging it! She does a lot of sales stuff on ebay and a few other sites so most evenings she is sitting at the computer....

Anyway, to answer your question the values are from my car. Since my car is functioning correctly right now, I felt it was pretty safe to say that that is what they should be. I am not sure why yours would read with KOEO and mine does not. Mine only read after the car was running. I will try and do a little more digging into this...

All, the other values seem to look OK.

I know it can be extremely frustrating!

 

OK, so I was just reading in the Bentley manual that when you change the Throttle body you are supposed to reset the DME control unit adaption values. If you changed the unit yourself and did not do this than that is possibly why you are seeing the first 2 errors periodically.

Why did you replace the Throttle body?

When the car doesn't want to start have you checked for fuel (as well as pressure) and spark? When you turn the key on can you here the fuel pump run?

Is/was the car not wanting to start at the time you captured the screen shots you posted from IMPA?

 

No problem...Thanks for taking the time when you do get the chance.

I did not check for fuel pressure at the rail because I can't find the port. From reading around I think it's under the intercooler. I do hear the fuel pump run then stop when I believe it has pressure. My understanding of the error messages is that it's stopping fuel at injector because of the error/problem. I did see spark. I replaced the throttle body (and throttle pedal assembly) due to recommendations from my thread. I think I reset the adaptations. Is that done on the speedo?

Yes, the screenshot are from when the car will not start. It hasn't started in 3 weeks now...

Thanks again for your time!

 

I should be able to try this with a r56 right? With the INPA software . I'm a backyard mechanic and bought a non starting 2007 cooper s.

 

All depends on what is wrong with the car, does it crank and not start? Have you been able to do a compression test, or verify engine timing?