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Stock Problems/IssuesDiscussions related to warranty related issues and repairs, or other problems with the OEM parts and software for MINI Cooper (R50), Cabrio (R52), and Cooper S (R53) MINIs.
First, I'm posting in general to get the widest exposure. I hope that's OK.
The problem: All of a sudden, one morning, the top on my '06 JCW cabriolet stopped working completely. The lights on the top switches do not light at all and the top makes no noise. It's like it's completely dead. Even the sunroof won't work. I've checked the luggage tray switch and that's depressed as it should be. The rear hatch switch works and turns the inside light on and off when it's depressed. And the front hood/bonnet switch seems to be fine and is properly engaged with the latch. (I'll still check it with a meter for proper function.) What's weird is that the open bonnet/hatch warning light on the dash only lights up after I turn the ignition off. It will not be lit immediately, then after a second or two it will illuminate with the slow ding, ding, ding, then the light and ding will go off. One more thing of note is that when I press the down button for the top, I can hear a very faint click coming from the rear of the car. Perhaps over to the driver's side. Perhaps a relay?
So....aside from actually confirming that the switches are working properly, does anyone have any ideas? I drive with the top down almost all the time. Like daily, even in the winter, as long as it's not raining. And not being able to put the top down is really bugging me now.
One more thing, I had a problem with the rear hatch recently where one of the wires that goes between the body and the hatch door broke inside that rubber boot. I couldn't open the hatch the normal way and had to crawl over the back seat. I pulled everything apart and spliced in a new section of wire and restored normal function. I don't think any problems there would affect the top function, though. The hatch works normally for opening and closing and it unlocks with the key fob normally as well.
When I first turn on the ignition, the open bonnet/hatch light does not go on. It also does not go on when I start the car. When I turn the ignition off, the top control button flashes red a few times, then stops, then the open bonnet/hatch light goes on for a bit, then shuts off.
There is a fault in the system with either the trunk switch or the hood switch that is causing the convertible top not to open. That couple flashes at start up is a notatin of that.
I would also recommend for the future to get this tool , it will read all faults with the convertible top and I cold see the hall sensors and what works. Also great for ready stored fault codes that dont show up as a CEL.
Thanks for that, but I believe that neither the hood/bonnet being open or the rear hatch being open will not prevent the top from operating. If the parcel shelf is not properly positioned and locked down so that it's micro switch is not depressed, then yes, that will affect top operation, but only the top, not the sunroof part of the top.
But thanks for the suggestions. I do plan to have a scan done to see if anything shows up. On another forum, some people have run into a problem with the wiring harness where it exits the top and is bent as the top goes down and up. Sometimes the scan will show all Hal sensors as being failed which being highly unlikely, usually means there's a break in a ground wire.
Its does not affect it when they are working and depressed and undepressed. I Just understand why you are getting that door open warning and then the top does not work ? Like signal fault or something. Just make sure those micro switches are working, to rule out anything. The cable that goes from the back to the sunroof function had some issues in the past with the , I believe there was TSB for it in 2006, but its for the sunroof function only. Which is the first stage of the opening.
Yep. No movement anywhere. It's like it's completely dead. The light on the top down switch does blink/flash when I first get in the car and when I turn off the car and open the door, but that's it. There is a faint clicking at the left rear of the car that I can hear when I press the top down or top up button, but that's all that pushing the buttons will do.
During the 6+ years I've had the car, I have put the top down almost every time I drive it. I know that at least some other folks have run into problem with wire failure at bend where the bundle goes into the top and I'm thinking it might be this. When I get the scanner and if it shows that more than one sensor or switch is open, it may be a ground wire. Or even if it's just one sensor, it still may be a wire problem. Hall effect sensors are pretty simple and reliable. Anyway, I'll see what the scanner tells me before proceeding.
On a side note, I did have a wire fail me between the body and the hatch lid which rendered my latch electrically inoperable. I opened things up, slid the rubber boot away from the bent portion of the wiring bundle and there was the broken wire, both conductor and insulator. I spliced in a new section and now it works perfectly. I may find the same thing has happened to the wire(s) going to the top. TBD.
Well, I got my Schwaben scan tool and, unfortunately, it did not show any error codes in the convertible top. Both control modules checked out fine. So, since I am hearing a click in the back when I press the top down or up button (likely the relay supplying current to the sunroof motor), I'm thinking that there's some break in the circuit between the relay and the sunroof motor. That's going to be the first thing I look at. I'll check for current at the connector when I press the button and will likely also jumper power to the sunroof motor directly from the battery. That way I'll know if the sunroof motor works. If no power to the motor, then I'll start tracing things back. It may be as simple as a broken wire like the one I found going to my rear hatch release. One would think that the wiring would hold up longer than that, but I do use the top a lot.
Thats good you narrowed it down and all the hall senors and operation button was tested and worked. The wiring at the back had the most issues with the wire going to the sunroof section of the top would chaff and break. What i would do is follow those wire in the side, near the pump. There might have been a wire that when the top opened all the way caught or chaffed. I never had that issue with mine but if the top or motor was worked on before it could be the case if one of the clips that hold it into place was not snapped in all the way or working its way loose.
Thanks for that! That's exactly what I plan to do. Too bad I can't put the top down (or shouldn't) to get at that wiring. At least it's doable. With luck I'll find the problem this weekend and be back to top-down motoring.
'Did some work today. Another, more detailed scan showed no faults, though during a component by component activation check, I found a blank result for the right stowage latch. I pressed the "continue" button on the scanner and that cleared it and it then showed "contact open" as it should.
I did some voltage measurements at the connector that plugs onto the sunroof motor. The blue wire with the white stripe showed 12+ (14+ with engine running) volts when I checked it by pressing the close button. (Nothing with the open button as it should.) When I checked the red wire with the black stripe, I got nothing when pressing either the close or open button. (Open button should have produced voltage.) Both these tests were done with the meter grounded to the motor frame.
So, it appears that I'm not getting voltage to the motor when I press the open button. And I'm not getting a complete circuit and voltage to the motor when I press the close button either. The two relays that operate the folding sunroof motor not only send current to the motor, but they also provide the path to ground through the as well. The default position of the relay is making a connection to ground. When one button is pushed, the corressponding relay sends current to the motor and the path to ground from the motor goes through the other relay. When the other button is pushed, this path is simply reversed. I'll be checking the relay itself tomorrow or during the week and also checking the wire path from the relay to the motor on the red/black wire.
Also, I tried cranking the sunroof open manually and when I opened it far enough, I was then able to press the down button and the top completely came down per normal. This was nice because it made it very easy for me to get into the back and remove the left rear interior side panel so I can get at the wiring and relays. And the top went back up again per normal though I had to manually crank the sunroof closed. What's interesting is that the hydraulic pump would not shut off like it normally would. I chalked this up to the non operational sunroof motor which normally would close the latches and then shut off the pump. No bigger at this point.
I also pulled the sunroof motor and checked it. It runs perfectly in both directions and while I was at it, I lubed the gears before I reinstalled it.
So, here are my theories on why there's no current to the sunroof motor.
The first and I think the most likely is that the relay that controls the opening of the sunroof is malfunctioning. It's not sending current to the motor to open it and since the ground path for closing the sunroof also goes through this relay, that's why the motor won't run even though I confirmed 12+ volts at the connector when pressing the close button.
The second theory is that that the red/black wire is broken somewhere. This wire provides the juice for the motor opening the sunroof and also provides the ground circuit for closing the sunroof. This theory also makes sense.
I will check the wiring first as it is easy to check. And I'll check the relay as well, even if the wire checks out bad. Of interest is that when I press the open and close buttons, the appropriate relays click, but though they are identical relays, one sounds different from the other. That may tip the scales towards the relay being the problem. But we'll see.
FYI, the Schwaben scan tool is really great and easy to use. If anyone's looking for a top notch scan tool, I highly recommend it. I can do so much more than the much simpler ones that work with phones and tablets and can only read the usual OBD2 codes. The Schwaben unit also reads and clears and analyzes all the other body, suspension, ABS, and airbag codes. Very nice. And though it's 200 dollars, it's already almost paid for itself as my local shop wanted 125 for a full vehicle scan.
Seems there's a break in the wire somewhere between the relay socket and the folding sunroof motor. And that harness is not easy to get at or replace/repair. And it could be in more than one location. Crap again....
The first thing I did to confirm the break was to swap the two relays involved with opening and closing the sunroof. I still got current on the blue/white motor lead (to ground) and no current from the red/black wire. (Same as before.) I then removed both relays from their sockets and confirmed which terminal in the socket supplied current to the sunroof motor. The two relays are identical so the terminal location in one socket would be the same in the other socket. I checked the socket supplying current to the blue/white motor wire and presto, I had continuity (as expected). I then checked the corresponding terminal in the other socket and.....nada. Open circuit.
'Looks like I'll just pull the other interior side panel out and then call around for someone who has experience with the 1st gen mini convertible top and see how much they'll charge for the necessary work. The wiring harnesses are relatively cheap, so I may have both replaced if they have to go in all the way. I was sure hoping it would be a simple fix. I suppose I can take some solace in the fact that I narrowed it down so much which hopefully should save me some money.
About an hour later.......
I've isolated the break in the wiring by hooking up my Fluke meter to both ends of the broken wire (at motor and at relay) and reaching in and manipulating the wire as it bends around various parts of the top frame. The break is in the main curve where the rear most part of the top mechanism pivots. If I can just get in there, I could splice new lengths of wire in there and repair the break. Of course, the wires could be seriously compromised at some of the other bending points, but at least this would get me going for awhile. So, does anyone know how to access the back of the mechanism through the outside without removing the entire top from the car or needing to take the top halfway apart? Is there a trick to pulling back the fabric at the rear of the rear window? Or am I stuck doing a major disassembly?
Or, is it possible to access the wiring at some point just south of the bow, cut it, and then feed/pull in new wires? Or just run a new wire and leave the old in place? The problems as I see it is that the wiring harness is held in place in numerous places with clips and tie wraps and that would hinder my removal of the old wiring. And even if I got new wires in there, I'd not be able to properly secure them in place and while that might work for awhile, the chances of pinching/cutting the new wires would be increased.
Meanwhile, the sunroof is working again, though I haven't tried opening the top all the way as the wire that I manipulated could easily just go open circuit again. So for now I'm still driving with the top up. 'Supposed to rain tomorrow anyway.
One other thing I may tackle are the broken plastic "bushings" that are on the sliding roof mechanism and which slide in the grooves/tracks of the convertible top frame. The bushings got old, cracked and fell off and on the left side, at least, there are none which makes for a more rattly top and it doesn't close as effectively as it should. Does anyone know if it's easy enough to pop the slides out so I can measure the tabs the bushings would go on? I can easily enough design new ones on CAD and then machine them at work as we've to a nice Bridgeport. Heck, I could even fabricate them by hand. Delrin would be my material of choice, I think.
What I'm talking about is in #3 of the attached jpg.
Well, the saga of the non-operational top is at an end. As I determined, it was a broken wire in the harness that goes up to the sunroof motor. I chalk it up to having used the top so much. By my estimate, I’ve put it down and back up easily more than 2,000 times in the past 6.5 years. Probably more.
I took the car to BR Racing in Los Gatos and they determined it was something they’d prefer someone else worked on, so they took the car to their interior/convertible top pro. A shop that works on a lot of custom cars and high end stockers. (There was a beautiful 59 Vette there that had more than 400,000 dollars put into it already.) Anyway, these guys did the work and got me up and running again. To replace the wiring harness, the top had to be removed from the mechanism. Harness was 235. Labor 500. Since they were doing all that work, I had them also replace the slider mechanisms for the sunroof. The one on the left had broken and lost both of the plastic bushings that run in the tracks. Mini want’s 580 dollars for those so OUCH. And labor to install and adjust was 1080. Ouch again. Total for all top work was 2395. Double ouch. Of course, the local Mini dealer wouldn’t even consider just replacing the sliders as they said their people (and other independent shops) could never seem to get the job done right. They wanted to replace the entire top bow assembly with the motor sliders, mechanisms, etc. to the tune of nearly 2000 dollars just for the parts. Never mind labor or replacing the wiring harness.
As a side benefit, the top now works as new or better than new. And the whistling noise that I had when the top was up is now gone because the left side of the sunroof now closes properly against the top of the windshield frame. The top material is still in good shape and they also installed the two rear rubber/chrome trim pieces on either side of the third brake light. This is my third set and hopefully my last.
Thanks to all for your suggestions and comments.
Oh, I have the original slider mechanisms and the right side still has the plastic bushings intact. I’m keeping them so that should the plastic bushings ever crack and fail in the new sliders, I can simply measure and recreate on CAD the two bushings and then machine new ones so if there’s a next time, I can simply replace the bushings and not the entire mechanism. Crappy decision on Mini’s part to not make these an item that can be purchased separately.
Total, including parts, was just under 2400 dollars. Yowch!
I was hoping to be able to get at the wiring harness where the break was and splice in some new sections of wire. Unfortunately, it was buried deep where I couldn't work on it. The only way to access the wire was to remove the top from the frame/mechanism and I wasn't going to attempt that myself. 'Least not in the winter and the Mini being my only ride. So, I paid a pro to do the work. And since they had to do all that work, I figured a completely new harness only made sense as who knows where the wires might break next. And after thinking about it, I'm sure I was way over the 2000 operations of the top. Probably closer to 3000 cycles.
With luck, the top will now last until I get rid of the car. But that won't be for awhile yet, as I still really like the car and though it's got 90,000 miles on it, it runs as strong as ever and everything is tight/taut like new. Even the shocks are fine (for stockers). I have replaced a few things through the years, though. SS lines, Powerslot rotors, Hawk pads, aluminum coolant tank, API damper pulley, etc., etc. I've always run Amsoil in the engine and Redline MTL in the transmission. It's got the factory limited slip and the JCW front strut brace as well as all the other possible JCW upgrades including the full aero kit. Just a fun car. Not the fastest or quickest around, but fun nevertheless. Enough that I found myself gridded first waiting to head out on the track last summer at Searspoint with the Northern California Shelby Club. I checked my review mirror and thought "I'm going to be giving a few point-by's" as I noticed all the high HP supercharged Shelby Mustangs lining up behind me. I checked my rear view mirror at turn 2, no cars. Turn 3a, no cars. Turn 4 and 5 the same. I figured that by the exit of turn 6 (the Carosel) that I'd have at least one positioned to pass me in the first passing zone between 6 and 7. Nope. Not a soul in the mirror. By then my tires were warming up so I wicked it up and by the end of my second lap, I'd caught the back of the field and started picking cars off one and two at a time. It was a hoot. And it was my first track experience.
First, I'm posting in general to get the widest exposure. I hope that's OK.
The problem: All of a sudden, one morning, the top on my '06 JCW cabriolet stopped working completely. The lights on the top switches do not light at all and the top makes no noise. It's like it's completely dead. Even the sunroof won't work. I've checked the luggage tray switch and that's depressed as it should be. The rear hatch switch works and turns the inside light on and off when it's depressed. And the front hood/bonnet switch seems to be fine and is properly engaged with the latch. (I'll still check it with a meter for proper function.) What's weird is that the open bonnet/hatch warning light on the dash only lights up after I turn the ignition off. It will not be lit immediately, then after a second or two it will illuminate with the slow ding, ding, ding, then the light and ding will go off. One more thing of note is that when I press the down button for the top, I can hear a very faint click coming from the rear of the car. Perhaps over to the driver's side. Perhaps a relay?
So....aside from actually confirming that the switches are working properly, does anyone have any ideas? I drive with the top down almost all the time. Like daily, even in the winter, as long as it's not raining. And not being able to put the top down is really bugging me now.
One more thing, I had a problem with the rear hatch recently where one of the wires that goes between the body and the hatch door broke inside that rubber boot. I couldn't open the hatch the normal way and had to crawl over the back seat. I pulled everything apart and spliced in a new section of wire and restored normal function. I don't think any problems there would affect the top function, though. The hatch works normally for opening and closing and it unlocks with the key fob normally as well.
Ideas??
Thanks!
Hi I have an issue where I have no lights flashing. Nothing roof doesn’t come down. No clicking noises. Nothing back microswitch is fine. Taken it to Auto technicians a say all the fuses are fine. Take it to Mini they say all the report states is roof not working? How Shonky is at Volkswagen it come up at fault code even what part number I need this is crazy if anyone could help it be much appreciated roof not going down no flashing lights. All the best.
01-27-2016 | 06:53 PM
