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Stock Problems/IssuesDiscussions related to warranty related issues and repairs, or other problems with the OEM parts and software for MINI Clubman (R55), Cooper and Cooper S(R56), and Cabrio (R57).
Had cyl head rebuilt. It burnt a valve without warning. Anyway, I got everything back together and engine runs very poorly. It’s very rough. It sounds very similar to how it ran with zero compression in #3 before repair was done. The only code I’m getting is P1777 which apparently can be anything. Trying to figure out the problem. I am familiar with the timing in locking the crank and cams properly. Maybe there are common errors or certain plugs that get crossed. I don’t know. Any suggestions are appreciated.
did you check the timing again when this happened?
when I did my N18 timing, I think I got a similar issue and it was frustrating. after i gave up, I was like lemme check the timing...well, sure enough the timing had moved back. Reset it and things went back to normal.
Thanks for the post. 2008 S (N14) yeah it sure sounds like a timing issue but damn I lined up the cams index writing up and all pistons halfway with #1 on its way up (90° btdc) so not sure how it could be off but I’ll double check it. If timing is good, any other ideas? I remember one time on a Acura I mixed up 2 plugs (throttle position sensor and something else I forget) and it ran very similarly. Back then I went through the plugs again found the mistake and bam running perfect. I’ve gone through the wires on the here on my mini but it’s possible I missed something. Just looking for common errors or different things to check. Thanks again.
Last edited by shanksamillion; 07-02-2018 at 08:59 AM.
Reason: Typo
if timing is good, check the spark plugs. sometime somehow the gaps get tight and they dont fire properly.
also, check the codes, they really help narrow down the diagnosis...I dont know if we talked about this, but get yourself ISTA/D with K+Dcan usb cable. very powerful software to have.
I checked the gap and they were all very tight even the brand new one, had to very carefully open them up to .028”. They are the ngk ilzkbr7a8dg. Funny think is I replaced plugs like 20k ago just put em in without checking and car ran good until it blew exhaust valve 2 years later. I will check the gaps again. Good idea. What do you show as proper gap for my ngks?
Only code is P1777 which I though was engine related. Google search showed everything from bad gas to bad crank and cam sensors. I think that was bad info because another forum posted p1777 as front right wheel speed sensor
P1777 is right abs wheel speed sensor which makes sense because I disconnected it to clean the area. Probably didn’t plug it in all the way or I got a bad sensor. Just got home from long trip. Going to gap to .032 and double check timing. With zero engine codes this is frustrating. You’d think if it was off a tooth on the timing that it’d misfire. I don’t know man. Wish me luck.
Last edited by shanksamillion; 07-08-2018 at 12:39 PM.
Reason: Add picture
Thanks for the post. 2008 S (N14) yeah it sure sounds like a timing issue but damn I lined up the cams index writing up and all pistons halfway with #1 on its way up (90° btdc) so not sure how it could be off but I’ll double check it. If timing is good, any other ideas? I remember one time on a Acura I mixed up 2 plugs (throttle position sensor and something else I forget) and it ran very similarly. Back then I went through the plugs again found the mistake and bam running perfect. I’ve gone through the wires on the here on my mini but it’s possible I missed something. Just looking for common errors or different things to check. Thanks again.
This is a good way to "ball-park" timing before using the proper locking tools. Without locking the crank, you're only guessing at 90deg.
Originally Posted by shanksamillion
I checked the gap and they were all very tight even the brand new one, had to very carefully open them up to .028”. They are the ngk ilzkbr7a8dg. Funny think is I replaced plugs like 20k ago just put em in without checking and car ran good until it blew exhaust valve 2 years later. I will check the gaps again. Good idea. What do you show as proper gap for my ngks?
NGK part number uses the "8" as a gap measurement --- it translates to 0.8mm. Your usage might warrant a different gap, but 0.8 is a good setting to start with.
Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the help Crank was locked. I should’ve mentioned this. Just checked it and it’s spot on. Unless there’s something I’m missing. Should I take pictures??? Right now I’m just a tic under the .8mm so I will open them up to the .8.
Timing looks good to me. Here are some pictures. Any thoughts? #1 and #2 close up showing at same height with pin locking crank All four at same height 90° position with crank locked Index writing on exhaust straight up. Hard to see but it’s there. Writing on intake facing up with crank locked. #1 cam lobes pointing at 45° up and inward. Overhead shot Replicate photo of intake. Ignore.
Last edited by shanksamillion; 07-08-2018 at 03:36 PM.
Reason: Photos
OK, now how about the cam locking tools --- can they be installed correctly --- while the crank is still locked? Or do you need to loosen the tensioner to rotate the cams slightly (a wrench on the cam next to where the locking tool installs, not the bolt at the chain end)?
Not sure how this happened but the locking tool on the intake side won’t quite fit. Well, it fits but I can’t tighten down the bolt unless I rotate the cam a tiny tiny bit in order to get it flush with the head. When I installed everything, that locking tool fit flush. Not sure why it would be different now or how it is off. Very strange yet interesting. So would this tiny tiny amount off on intake cane cause the car to run so poorly?
Tool on intake cam doesn’t fit flush. The bolt won’t screw down. I’d have to rotate the cam a tiny tiny bit. Exhaust cam fits flush If you zoom in you can see intake side not flush
If this tiny amount is in fact the problem. The procedure for correction involves
-remove chain tensioner
-remove intake cam central bolt
-remove intake vanos sprocket
-rotate intake cam so that locking tool fits flush
-pretension chain .6nm (finger tight??)
-install intake vanos sprocket with new central bolt
-install chain tensioner
Do I really need to by a new central bolt for the intake cam? Is it a stretch bolt? I just replace it.
Last edited by shanksamillion; 07-08-2018 at 04:59 PM.
The best way to find out if "this tiny amount" is the problem, is to correct it. And yes, the cam central bolt is a stretch bolt. Not replacing it is a huge risk.
Finger tight for 0.6nm is another risk. As a retired QA / QC mfg'g professional, I wouldn't recommend it. Some auto parts stores rent tools --- try this before buying an inch/lb torque wrench, they're kinda pricey.
After repairing it, crank the engine a couple full revs manually and CW not CCW, then check timing again --- with tools, not straws. It can slip after chain has been flexed.
Thanks again for your help. Parts ordered. Regarding the .6 nm, I don’t have nor could I find a torque wrench that goes this low in inch pounds. They all start at 20 or 25. The conversion on .6nm is only 5.3 in/lbs or .44 ft/lb. This is not much. I’m curious if you know where I could get a wrench that can do this?
not a "clicker", kinda "old-school" but should work --- 0 - 80"/lbs (0 - 9Nm), and it's under $30. Lots more shown, but only a couple good for 0.6Nm. I've been using a big ½" ft/lb torque wrench of the same "beam" style for most of my adult life --- works great. My inch/lb wrench was recently calibrated (clicker mechanism came loose when stored at a "zero" setting), doesn't like settings close to zero, and replacement cost is about $300. I tried a Harbor Freight model and it broke immediately.
Cam locking tool fits now. Problem still exists. I went through the scanner again and found in live data fuelsys1 cl fault. This is my problem. Either the post cat o2 sensor is bad or something is causing the computer to hold the sensor at high value. The sensor ranges from .810-.845. Now, as I understand it, at start, the engine should run in open loop mode until it heats up then go into closed loop with o2 ranging between.1. - .9 I’m not sure how the precat sensor should work. It is a wide band sensor I think. So anyway either I got a bad postcat sensor, or maybe both, or something else is causing the sensor to stay high and run in closed loop fault. Any thoughts??
Here’s the tool fitting nicely now. I think it was off a half a tooth tops. Oh well. It’s done now. Btw what is proper deflection on chain between intake and exhaust sprockets? I didn’t measure but I’m assuming I got the pretensioner right and I got maybe 1/4 inch of movement between sprockets.
Should be zero movement between sprockets. Sounds like at least two of the three sprockets were already tight when the tensioner tool was used. Should have at least the two cam sprockets loose (I like to tighten the crank sprocket to spec first), all locking tools in place, top guide installed, the tensioner tool installed and adjusted, then the cam sprockets tightened. Then it's OK to install the real tensioner, make a manual engine rev or two (CW only) and check timing again --- should be no change, and no chain slack, anywhere. The purpose of the manual rev is to ensure chain is tight --- no kinks when tightened. If the timing is still off, don't forget to use new bolts again when repeating the above procedure.
Just to confirm, when the top chain guide is removed, you’re saying that I shouldn’t be able to move the chain up and down at all? Zero movement? I mean, the chain is tight but I can move it a tiny bit if I push and pull at it from the middle. I did it exactly as you said. I did it exactly like this before, when replaced chain and guides and tensioner 3 years ago. It all went together super easy last time. Started right up no issues. Not sure why this is happening now. This is getting comical now. All I can do is laugh. Thanks for the tips.
Here’s the tool fitting nicely now. I think it was off a half a tooth tops. Oh well. It’s done now. Btw what is proper deflection on chain between intake and exhaust sprockets? I didn’t measure but I’m assuming I got the pretensioner right and I got maybe 1/4 inch of movement between sprockets.
Originally Posted by shanksamillion
Just to confirm, when the top chain guide is removed, you’re saying that I shouldn’t be able to move the chain up and down at all? Zero movement? I mean, the chain is tight but I can move it a tiny bit if I push and pull at it from the middle. I did it exactly as you said. I did it exactly like this before, when replaced chain and guides and tensioner 3 years ago. It all went together super easy last time. Started right up no issues. Not sure why this is happening now. This is getting comical now. All I can do is laugh. Thanks for the tips.
In the world of Mini timing, there's quite a difference between your two measurements. 1/4" is way too much and "a tiny bit" is probably OK --- very subjective. Probably other issues are causing your grief?
07-01-2018 | 11:48 AM
