What is the difference between the Unichip and the MTH?

Are either of them that effective in a MC?

And, are there any installers in Mass. for either?.....don't want to attempt it myself as if there is any way that a computer or program can crash, I can find it!

Last question: how do dealers feel about these mods when you bring in for service and do they say it affects the warranty?

 

Umberto, The MTH "chip" is basically a program that is used to reprogram the ecu in your car. The Unichip is a piggyback chip that is wired into your wiring harness and intercepts the signals comming out of your ecu. The MTH "chip" will have to be reflashed onto your ecu everytime your ecu is reprogramed by the Mini service people whereas the Unichip does not. As far as installing the Unichip goes, it couldn't be easier. It comes complete with a wiring harness that is very easy to install.

The benefits for the MC might not be that great. Certainly a custom tune by a dealer will give you the most benefits. The closest dealers are in CT. I don't think there are any in MA.

Dealers as a general rule will try to deny any warrantee work if there are any mods present. Some are better than others. I think that Peabody is better that Herb Chambers (I would stay away from them like the plague) and New Country.

Cheers,

MeanGRN

 

since that was written from a pro-unichip perspective, i'll elaborate more on the mth...

the mth is only $60, but u have to have the appropriate cable, which is around $100, so max is 160, but if u know someone/club that has the cable, it's only $60.

the mth is customized for u...u tell them what features u want, what fuel grade u'll use, etc...u can have it tone down the DSC if u want, etc

the mth also is based on ur mods...u got a pulley? no problem, it'll take that into account...2 weeks later u added a new exhaust? no problem, a quick email to mth and u've got a new program customized exactly to YOUR MINI, unlike the Unichip...

the mth is not detectable by MINI/BMW service and can be done infinite times...if the dealer does upgrade ur software, u just d/l that new software and email it to mth, and they'll make u a new one based on the new software...

so it's cheaper, more customized, indetectable and infinitely upgradeable...

 

I highly recommend Turner Mororsport in Amesbury (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/). They're excellent - really know what they're doing.

 

I would agree with you on many of the points, although more customized, I think is a reach. From all of the thousands of posts I have read, it looks like Franz does not have a Mini Cooper or has done any dyno tuning on this product with a Mini Cooper. So I highly doubt it is very customized. He has not done lots of runs with different pulley sizes or gas types. I think he gets some feedback from users on some things, and other things such as DSC and rev limiter he can fix. This is not to knock the chip per se, you are just getting what you pay for, more or less. It probably gives a few more hp by leaning out the ratios, does some nice things like the rev limiter, DSC, and definitely smooths out the throttle (which a lot of people mistaken for seat of the pants more power). I just can't get more than this for what is going on in the tuning. Power seems to be there, but the dyno graphs are all over the place, with some people showing no power, to some showing upwards of 7hp.

In contrast, the Unichip has been dyno tuned with various components across countless hours by people skilled with the intricacies of the Mini. Furthermore, you can take it to some tuner shops around the country and they can further fine tune it specifically for just your car. It also has multiple switching modes, which is something that the MTH solution is not capable of. And it can also drive external components such as an intercooler sprayer. Obviously with this customizability comes a much higher price.

I think a lot of people are getting fooled if they think the MTH is as custom tuned as it is made out to be. From the posts that I can read, the perception is that the MTH is custom tuned to an extreme level for different grades of gas, every conceivable part imagined.... And from further reading all of the posts on Mini2 and NAM, I just don't see that this is what is happening.

Again, I think if you are looking for a chip that gives smooths out the car, gives you a few bells and whistles with such things as rev limiter and DSC, and is an absolute steal to purchase go with the MTH. If you want something more finely tuned, can be further tuned at your convenience specifically for your car, can have multiple tunes, and control other devices, and you are willing to spend the extra money than go with the Unichip.

 

Umberto, I'm under the impression that you drive a mini cooper not s model. If that is the case then mth is probably your best bet. It'll smooth out the throttle response and give you a little extra go go. If you are considering taking your mini cooper to a completely bananas level with all the go fast stuff you could possibly do then the unichip would make more sense. I know mth does offer mc software but I don't know if that is the case with unichip. There are other software options for the mc other than mth but they'll cost more and may not offer results that justify the higher cost. I'd recommend you use the search, there must be plenty of information on this subject at this point. Hope that helps, good luck.

 

[QUOTE=dgszweda1]I would agree with you on many of the points, although more customized, I think is a reach. From all of the thousands of posts I have read, it looks like Franz does not have a Mini Cooper or has done any dyno tuning on this product with a Mini Cooper. So I highly doubt it is very customized. He has not done lots of runs with different pulley sizes or gas types . . . . . blah blah blah.

I'm curious dgszweda1 have you bothered to look at MTH's web site? Did you happen to notice that they specialize in software tuning for BMW's as well as other cars? Do you know for a fact that they have not run this on MINI's with various hardware installed for testing? Have you written to the principals of the company to ask them these questions?

FWIW, the product produces as advertised. A recent install by someone on this board, of the software, produced a 10hp increase on a base MINI S with no modifications, for $160.00. Even if it was just 7hp on a base install, it is still one of the cheapest improvements for HP that you can make, and when you add more toys, you can get it remapped for NOTHING!

Now, let's see, a UNICHIP cost how much? $735 from Webb and the stated gain is the range of 9-10 hp. Sure you can take it to a custom tuner and probably produce more, especially if you have other modifications, but how much EXTRA is that going to cost? My understanding is that these guys won't do it out of kindness and a few hours of custom dyno tuning time can set you back a few bills more. So now you dropped maybe $1000 for 15 hp Woo-Hoo!

So, let's do the numbers, MTH, about $22.86 per hp if you figure in the 7hp range like you say, falls to $16 per hp in the 10 hp range of some of the installs I have read about. Unichip, about $73.50 per hp if you figure in the 10 hp range. Hmm.....$22....$73....$16....$73....not a hard one to figure out for me, that's why I invested in the cable and wait it's delivery. The most bang for the buck.

Cheers!

 

cheiron19,

I never said it wasn't a lot of product for the money. But regardless of what you read about MTH website, Franz is the one doing the programming and from what is posted, it appears Franz does not have a Mini and is not doing any dyno tuning of the Mini with various components.

 

A few sentences into my reply I realized that I typed this before! Like so many things in life, it really depends what one wants. I found the thread... copy/paste job:

I'm sure that many of the chips share some basic concepts and how they go about things. But unless the MTH can be tuned to one's unique car and mods, it is quite different that the UNIChip.

Saying that here is a map for an MCS with an intake and exhaust, for example, is nothing but a best guess. Out of the box, these cars can be quite different, so what is the tuner using as a baseline - probably some accepted average of all MCSs. Not ideal, but better than nothing I suppose. Ambiguity builds on that uncertainty because what intake and exhaust does this person have? I'm quite certain there is not a map for the Magnaflow, QuickSilver, Scorpion, UUC, and the Borla catbacks; not to mention the custom ones out there like mine. The same goes with the multitude of intakes on the market - they are not the same, yet such a universal map treats them that way. And by doing so, this type of generalization is not going to achieve maximum gains. The UNIChip affords true customization to ones' car and mods.

I'm quite certain that the MTH does as good as others with regard to their estimating, and for the price, they are popular for a reason. The UNIChip will also give some estimations of popular mod combos, thanks to Randy Webb. The dyno tune however is where maximum gains can be achieved.

As shared above by someone, I believe the MTH could be accidentally over-written by the dealer. I believe that the MTH doesn't have easy access to 3 maps, one being stock. I believe that the MTH cannot be re-sold to another. I believe that the MTH cannot be expected to work with all future mods. And I believe that the MTH does not offer the potential to control a device such as water sprayer, nitrous, or the like. The UNIChip addresses all of these. It costs more because it provides more.

Now, if I'm wrong on any of these, then I apologize. I have not read that thread in a while, thus the language (I believe). I think though that I'm quite accurate.

So when one says that the UNIChip is not worth it, that statement should be qualified properly. If one doesn't want to refine and maximize output, now and in the future, then the UNIChip will not be seen as worthy. If one doesn't see the benefit of multiple map options, and over-write protection, then those features won't lure them to the UNIChip. And if one doesn't care about controlling a sprayer or the like, or a possible resale, the UNIChip might not be a consideration.

The UNIChip is robust, and maybe more so than what some will want. For all that it offers, it really has no rival in the MINI world.

 

Dollar for dollar, out of the box, no extra investment, no additional time on a dyno(which is not free), the product from MTH provides the most bang for the buck. Period . . . Does that qualify it enough?

No, if you want to spend more time fine tuning the product, MTH is not the best bet. Franz will send a map for whatever new and improved product you place on your car, each time you do. Is it a general map possibly not tuned to that specific product? Probably, but then again so is the UNICHIP out of the box. It is a generic fuel map, yes you may get three maps, one for street fuel, one for race fuel, etc., but Franz can provide the same type of mapping. And you can save them on your CD and flash the software at any time from your computer. Not really much different then is it? With the exception of having a switch to make the change.

Your right, the dealer overwrites the software when he does a new software install, but the problem there is what? I have the original map that I downloaded from the car saved to disk, I have the new map sent by Franz with his tweeks saved to disk. So I download the current sodftware version that was written over the last install from Franz, send it to Franz and he re-tweeks it. So now I have four maps, that i can swap around if I want to.

For the forseeable future, the software mods provided by Franz can be adapted to any mod on the angine, since he addresses the software that directly controls the engine and other items, like DSC. Does the UNICHIP do this? No.

Sure, the UNICHIP can control other devices outside the realm of the engine management software, but I'm not sure it justifies a increase in price of over 4.5 times over the MTH software with cable and adapter.

No, the MTH software cannot be resold to another since it is tuned for the specific vehicle ID number. It can be sold with the vehicle, and you can always get a new copy for, now read carefully, $60! Since you already have the cable, or maybe a buddy has it, what a screaming good deal. Try that with the UNICHIP. Sure, you can remove it when you sell the car and have it installed on your next MINI, but then you have to go through the entire process of having it retuned for your specific car.

For probably 95% of the people who want a software mod for the MINI that is a load and play deal, MTH wins hand down for value. If you want to extract every last ounce of HP from the car and spend hours on the dyno, with the extra cost involved, then maybe the UNICHIP is what you need. You will pay far beyond your original investment to extract that last ounce of HP and at some point you have to consider the ROI.

 

Let's put things in perspective here. I think that the MTH software and the UNIchip product are targeted for three different markets, thus comparing the two products is not exactly a fair proposition.

MINI have set up the parameters of their ECU software to allow the stock components to produce (as close as possible) the numbers (emissions/mpg/bhp/torque, etc.) advertized in their specifications. Bear in mind that they have to achieve these numbers in a world market where octane and additives vary widely. Thus, many specific compromises are made to ECU code parameters by MINI (Siemens) for this purpose. So, we have a couple of limiting factors that must be accounted for in the ECU code: (1) it is based entirely on the design/performance of stock components and, (2) it must provide specified performance numbers across many fuel formulations.

It is easy to see that if a MINI always used 93 AKI fuel, the limiting ECU parameter factors relating to broad fuel acceptance could be streamlined and tuned to that specific fuel formulation; this is bound to produce some increase in drivability/performance.

New ECU Parameters via the Knowledge System

Regarding modifications to stock components, increases in performance/drivability can be achieved by calculating/estimating the impact that aftermarket modifications may have. A different SC pulley has a specific diameter and, doing the math, the potential increase in boost can be calculated (disregarding the effect of heat, of course). Once those numbers are determined, the ECU parameters can then be modified to support the new pulley. Similarly, if you introduce an new intake and exhaust system with the capability of a higher CFM air/exhaust flow, you can also estimate the impact of these items and alter ECU parameters to capitalize on their capability.

Now, bear in mind that we have been talking about changing the ECU parameters though calculations and estimations. No doubt the changes made in this manner will provide better than stock drivability and performance. This calculation and estimation process is, of course, greatly enhanced by an "insider's" knowledge regarding the development of and compromises in Siemens' software. And finally, the understanding of the ECU parameters affecting the various sub-systems (e.g.; ASC/DSC) allows certain "tweaks" to be performed.

What we have above is an increase in performance/drivability through addressing known software "compromises" and in-depth sub-system knowledge. Let's call this tuning method the knowledge system (my invented phrase). Therefore, the knowledge system tuning method does not rely on a traditional "feedback" system (diagnostic equipment, dynos, etc.) and does not take into account the "tolerance stacking" between identical MINIs. In fact, it does not rely on ever have owned or driven a MINI. However, the performance/drivability gains are real.

New ECU Parameters via the Feedback System

Now, contrast the knowledge system with the feedback system (again, my invented phrase). The feedback system gives visability to the effects of ECU parameter changes; usually this is done with a dyno. The MINI is "baselined" in its stock configuration. Then ECU parameter changes are made and evaluated by examining their effect on the baseline data, or on the previous dyno run data. The key here is that we are tuning our MINI (not a "generic" MINI) and are making successive improvements by changing the ECU parameters and re-evaluating their effect. And, since our MINI might have any combination of aftermarket mods, tuning by the feedback system will extract the maximum performace from our specific configuration. Thus, the feedback system tuning is customized for our MINI, even accounting for tolerance stacking.

The UNIchip solution is very well-designed, convenient and the product has some nice features. A number of UNIchip maps have been developed for various combinations of modifications and, I assume, each map was created by carefully determining its parameters via the feedback system on someone's MINI. However, a UNIchip with one of the available maps is still not a truly customized solution as the map was created on someone else's MINI. Granted, it is a more in-depth modification of ECU parameters as compared to the MTH software, but it can be made better.

To get the maximum from the UNIchip's capabilities, your MINI needs to be involved. This means having excellent people like Ryan Malcom and Randy Webb custom-tune the UNIchip maps with your car on their dynos. Yes, this is more expensive but you will extract every smidgeon of performace from your mods with their effort.

So--what does all this mean?

The MTH and UNIchip solutions offer three levels of increasing drivability and performance:

Level 1: MTH
A new ECU map is installed in the MINI's ECU. The knowledge system, using calculation and estimation, is used to improve drivability. The compromises in the ECU parameters are reduced and sub-systems are tweaked. Cost: ~$200 (w/ $130 USB cable).

Level 2: UNIchip (with one of the available "semi-customized" configuration maps)
A "daughter-board" is attached to MINI's ECU. The customer selects from a range of available ECU maps (based on aftermarket modification combinations) that have been developed via the feedback system. Cost: ~$750.

Level 3: Customized UNIchip (based on your MINI)
A Level 2 UNIchip installation with a map specifically developed via the feedback system on your MINI and based on the exact combination of modifications you have made. This Level of tuning also addresses any tolerance stacking factors present in your MINI. Cost: ~$850 - $1,000+.

Considering these two products offer three levels of tuning, it is difficult to compare the MTH product with the UNIchip (standard) product and both of those to the UNIchip (custom) product. All offer real gains in performance and drivability, however it is the "depth" of tuning that differentiates them. Clearly, the MTH product will not reach the depth of the standard UNIchip and the standard UNIchip will not reach the depth of the customized UNIchip.

So to which targeted market do you belong?

If you don't have a lot of mods, and don't compete in your MINI, the MTH product is a very good value, based on its cost and ability to improve drivability and performance.

If you are a real enthusiast or compete in your MINI, the standard UNIchip product will help extract most of the potential performance improvements offered by your modifications. However, a UNIchip map may not be available for your specific combination of modifications. Chances are that one of the available maps will be very close, though. Also, in the future, if you will want to add modifications and then create a custom map for your MINI, the standard UNIchip product will work nicely.

And, finally, if you always wear your competition helmet as a fashion accessory (even in the shower), you will probably want the customized UNIchip product.

Now -- can't we all just get along?

FWIW,

Theo

 

[QUOTE=cheiron19] There you go - you hit it on the head. MTH specializes in SOFTWARE. Franz is a software expert - not an expert car tuner. But I agree, for under $100, what the heck...

 

It's just nice to have choices. I want more from an upgraded ECU, and not just more peformance capability. Some will want bang for the buck, and others will want, well, just more bang...

The mod'ing game gets very involved as we add more and more stuff to our cars. How everything works together is critical in extracting what we can out of our little engines. An ECU can tie it all together and really refine the set-up. Having spent much time, and a fair amount of money on mods, I want a chip that affords that. To dynamically tune and refine my MCS with it's very unique mod combo is well worth the money, for me, and others. And we can see, for others, it is not.

I see it as an investment also; and just because it can be sold. The performance aspect also has a unique future component. If I decide to go with a twincharged set-up, or to replace the stock blower with a turbo, or replace it with a different SC, the UNIChip can be tailored to it on a dyno, with the aforementioned benefits. That can be done immediately. Other chips might never have such a map created, and if so, time would most likely be an issue. And if it does become available down-the-road, it would still be an approximation type map. For those of us putting big money into our cars, and who want to get what they can out of them, the UNIChip makes sense.

Many who mod their cars regrularly do dynos a few times a year to see what they've accomplished, where they are at. In their cases, since they would be doing the dyno anyway, there is not the added expense of an additional dyno session. And if so, for these guys, it's not even a consideration...

Although we've had our cars for a just a few years, at most, many of us have purchased multiple ECU solutions. The UNIChip allows one to not only tune their set-ups here and now, but going forward, with whatever mod they might add next, or strange combo they have in the future...

Guys who go to the track and drive with 100 octane will find value in the B map. Basically, the UNIChip is really geared to the peformance enthusiast.

If was modding to let's say 190 or 200 hp, and tracking the car was not in the plans, the UNIChip might not appeal to me at all. There's no right or wrong here, the way I see it. What's the best solution for what one is trying to achieve? That is the question..

If I had to part with my MCS (God forbid!), it appears that I'd be able to sell the UNIChip for 500 bucks (recent transaction). This doesn't interest me one bit, but others have looked at this as a 200 to 300 dollar purchase...

Knowledge is power, and when armed with it, one can make the best choice for what they desire. The MTH will be better for some, while others will see the need for the UNIChip's offerings. Enjoy!

 

Again, I am not railing against the MTH, for the dollar amount and what you get, it is a great value, one that is most likely impossible to beat. What I don't understand is the thinking that some people have with the MTH. A lot of people tout how they can send the chip to Franz when they add a mod to their car and he will send them back a new tune customized to their mod. This I don't get. Not from a tune that hasn't been dyno tested. If I say I just installed a new CAI on my MCS and I would like a new tune. What does Franz do? He doesn't have a dyno. He doesn't have the CAI to test it out. We know that some CAI produce almost no extra flow, and some produce quite a bit more flow. So what does he tune it to. One that has a higher flow or a lower flow. Does he even know what the flow rates are, and the impact it has on the Mini's supercharged engine (which by the way, BMW does not have). Or does he just make some guesses and comes up with some values to put in. Do the values even have an impact?

Again, not ripping on the MTH, for the money it is more than one would expect. And the basic vanilla Unichip isn't configured either for all the different mods or car types out there. It is just that a lot of people hold onto and tout the fact that every time they change one little part on their car, they can get a new tune back from Franz in 24-48 hours. I just don't think the new tune means a whole lot in the perspective of the improved performance from the aftermarket part. And I don't think the new tunes make a bit of a difference. Maybe someone has some dyno's on it, to prove the different tunes make a difference. I couldn't get a response from Franz, and AlexN can't take Private Messages anymore, and this site is looking down on the support issue for the MTH, so this is the only place I can post this concern, and try to get feedback.

The only way you are really going to get a tune for your part is to have a product like the Unichip and take it too a tuning shop and have them tune it on a dyno. Especially since a lot of these parts have different affects on different cars.

 

Just to fill the void for those who don't seem to know . . .

Do you really need to own the car if you have worked with one of the well known tuners on developing a software package for a MINI? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, HITEC might have invested some dyno time and various shades of add-ons and thus Franz has seen/tuned quite a bit of software for the MINI.

Koopah was close to hitting the nail on the head. But others still seem to be missing something here. Some of the things they quote are from posts on a different thread here on the board, but then commit some serious errors of omission when not providing the response to those questions. The above quote was taken from the thread, post #822.

 

I have 2 questions for you guys as I am currently having this mth vs unichip debate with myself and my wallet:

1. I see the cost of MTH listed as $60, less than $100, and less than $200. I see that on the MTH website it is listed as 300 Euros ($345), plus the $70 cable = $415. What am I missing here?

2. How much on average would it cost to get the Unichip custom tuned to a car? (roughly)

 

Can't help ya with the first, but with the 2nd question, the local guy here would charge about $200, US. Also, I've heard that it might be possible to order a "blank" UNIChip, ie no pre-map with certain mods. The price being less. If this is true, for those who know that they want a custom tune anyway (immediately), this would be the way to go...

 

Lest we overlook an important aspect of the Unichip, it introduces a very large number of new components,connectors, and connections into the engine compartment, and as any electronics guy knows, simpler and fewer connections is better. Your ability to diagnose engine management issues is compromised by the Unichip design - the basic diagnostic technique becomes remove the Unichip stuff first, and start from there.

The MTH does not introduce any new hardware, which is a huge advantage vs. the Unichip design.

One MIGHT be able to do better than MTH by fine-tuning the Unichip for power IF your tuner is competent and patient and all the added components and sensors are working perfectly, but the difference in power between the two would be in the low single-digits.

 

MTH can be tuned with a dyno graph.

And MTH staff will always be ready to help with any mod you have done to your MINI.

For those still on warranty, MTH can also be switched back to stock for every dealer's service, where Unichip can't.

 

Huh? removing the Unichip takes only a few minutes...

 

r u sure, i talked to my local dealer today, and he said all i have to do is to switch my original harness back on, so will it put the ECU back to its original congiguration??? that is an important point for me, i should be able to restore my original set-up before the visits.

 

yes, all one needs to do is remove the Unichip harness & module and re-insert the standard harness into the box. it really only takes a few minutes and the car will run like normal - the Unichip leaves no trace as it is a piggyback system (with it's pro's and cons)... I've done this twice, piece of cake...

 

The Apexi S-AFC seems to be the way to go as far as dollar for HP. If what Tuls is sayin is accurate then thats a great buy considering they are maybe $350USD and fairly easy to use.

Umberto as far as "European tuning goes" 99.9% of cars have chips. I was used to Japanese cars before my Mini and it was either piggyback fuel contoller such as the AFC or a standalone.

In lamens terms MTH is the basic. Thats why it's only ~$150. It'll give you a few extra horse but if your planning on say doing a stage 3 or something to that affect while it may still work I would go with something better. Like the guys have said each aftermarket exhaust, intake or what have you is a little different from A to Z and this system does not get into the nitty gritty enough to FINE tune the car.

Unichip is a little more hardcore. It is more DETAILED which like I said is important especially when you've spent the bread on a few mods and would like to squeeze out all the juice. AFC is similar. It is a little more difficult to wire but as Tuls said 30hp....

Decide what you want to do with the car. If your planning just a few simple mods then the MTH would do the trick. If your spending the dough and looking to get all you can for your dollar spent then spend a little more and get the Unichip. Proper tuning is the most overlooked part of a performance vehicle. A lot of people do it half assed and wonder why they lack the power someone else has with the same setup.

Also watch out for HP figures and gains people post. A LOT of HP figures on Mini vendors sites are NOT to the wheels which IMO is stupid and tells me the product was not actually dyno tuned. I don't know why these guys all post Crank or Flywheel HP so watch what you read.