Cool - Sounds like you have it in the proper perspective.
:smile:

- - m

 

Update:

I have since learned that there is a second TSB that has been issued that deals with known problems with the portion of the wiring harness that feeds the throttle body. Despite the presentation of this additional information, MINI USA is of no help and maintains that any, yes any modifications to the car void the warranty. They will not even authorize the dealership to perform the electrical procedure that would conclusive point to the issues contained in the TSB..............

Unfortunately, prosecuting a company the size of BMW under Federal Law is time consuming and is not either quickly or easily resolved. MINI USA is content to stare me down and I am convinced that they are more than willing to wait me and my lawyers out.

In the meantime, the car (knock on wood) runs amazing.

I have had nothing but a positive experience with the aftermarket vendors on this site and even the dealership involved has been honest and supportive. With this in mind, I strongly caution anyone who goes the aftermarket route to chose a vendor with a warranty and be prepared for BMW/NA to attempt to invalidate your warranty in other areas.

My lawyer was very honest up front when he stated that the Magnussen-Moss Act, by it's very structure, favors the manufacturer. Even though the law states that the onus of proof for invalidation is on the manufacturer, the onus of prosecuting is on the consumer and that no action can be taken without legal proceding. This means time and money, and the time aspect alone makes it difficult for almost anyone to hold out long enough to get results.

So beware. The MMA is not worth the paper it was written on. I have yet to talk to one person, on this forum or on others that has ever had any luck with this worthless Act. I did more than threaten, I am following through and it is getting me absolutely nowhere.

I had been previously emboldened by an earlier experience with BMW and the threat of the MM Act - I have learned however, that the boys behind the Roundel are getting stiffer and not rolling as easy - for the rest of you - be prepared to go to court.

We are proceding with having an independent shop perform the diagnosis of the harness and potentially the repair/replacement of same. I will then be selling my beloved little car - I am done with BMW. Hello Lotus!

 

Ahh, another potential Elise owner? Unsold 05s may be down around $40K now ... thats CHEAPER than a new loaded MINI

An ardent red one just sold for $37.5K with 2K miles on it on Elisetalk (poor guy had to sell to get his exige).

 

So I won't mention here that a JCW MCS with LSD, JCW suspension and JCW brakes goes like stink, turns and stops and everything without voiding the warranty, because we've already beaten that horse to death, right?

Reminds me of some business meetings I once had to attend:

Dakota tribal wisdom says that when you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount. However, in business we often try other strategies with dead horses, including the following:
1. Buy a bigger whip.
2. Change riders.
3. Say "This is the way we have always ridden this horse."
4. Appoint a committee to study the horse.
5. Arrange to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increase the standards to ride dead horses.
7. Appoint a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
8. Create a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Compare the state of dead horses in today's environment.
10. Publish an internal memo declaring that "This horse is not dead."
11. Blame the horse's parents.
12. Harness several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declare that "No horse is too dead to beat."
14. Provide additional funding to increase the dead horse's performance.
15. Do a Cost Analysis Study to see if contractors can ride it cheaper.
16. Procure a COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) dead horse for a comparison study.
17. Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
18. Form a quality circle to find uses for a dead horse.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for dead horses.
20. Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
21. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position. :smile:

 

I think you're mentioning it..........

Oh, by the way - do not let them find out you track the car - that is also an issue.......

If I had to do it all over again, I still wouldn't get the JCW - I'd pass on the MCS all together.

 

You could buy a few Lotus Elises for what it would cost to get through trial on a M-M action. And then BMW/MINI will file an appeal and you are out even more $$$ with no resolution. At some point, the principle is not worth the cost and aggravation.

This post is not an I told you so post; rather, take notice from Skiploder's experience and don't think that M-M is going to force the big bad manufacturer to kowtow before the consumer - even if they are blatantly wrong. M-M is truly a case of being able to get as much justice as you can afford. But even then, it most likely won't be worth the hassle and aggravation.

 

Well put - you have my permission to say I told you so. Correct me if I am wrong but you called this months ago.......no shame in being right and reminding me about it......

Do not be lulled into a false sense of security by the M-M Act. It's frigging worthless.

I'm not advocating going the JCW route and I'm not advocating the aftermarket route - I'm advocating knowing what you're getting into.

A lot of people will pat you on the back, tell you to quote the M-M Act and have at 'em, (I know - I was guilty of it). I'm telling you it's not a viable option if they choose to call your bluff. Be prepared for a whole shibby-ful of frustration and bad feelings...........

Our corporate lawyers are heavy construction litigators - some of the baddest, meanest SOBs in the business - used to wringing money out of public agencies and large private clients to the tune of tens of millions of dollars.

If a guy we have given business to for 30 years and who has protected my interests during 18 years of that time with a fanatic zeal tells me, "give it up Curly, it will take us 18 months and well over 12x the price of the issue to even get a shot at a resolution", I know two things - (1) the Act ain't worth the paper it's written on and (2) basic math tells me it's not worth it.

And I am serious about the track issue - it came up and was cited as a cause for voiding my warranty. I know the dealer did not rat me out because he did not know. A P-car buddy of mine claimed at an event last year he caught a Mini rep writing down my VIN number..............I'll let that one sink in.

 

They also have to PROVE that what you did is what cause the failer

 

As I get older, I'm gaining insight about these things. I too feel the rage about the MM act abuses that we are supposed to ignore, and yet I really, really want to make modifications to the cars that I own. My solution is to try to slow down the process so that, in diminishing returns speak, I have less to 'lose'.

-- I believe that, at my (advanced) age (I'm 43), it's prudent (at least with my $ and time resources) to enjoy fewer mods. My daughter's college fund appreciates that for sure.
-- I try to buy used cars with some warranty coverage left (to avoid a paying for a major failure that is not my fault), and then,
-- I make simple, easy to return to stock mods (air filter, tires and wheels, visual enhancements, etc.) so that I preserve the basic driving characteristics of the vehicle.
-- I now also buy smarter, because I know what I want and there is selection of better cars out there to choose from.

I've learned that extensive modding off the showroom floor is a fools game - you can't get the money back and the more mods you pour in the less bang for your buck you seem to get *unless that's your thing* - which is OK too. This also applies to used cars, but it's less risky (about getting your $ back) and you have a more realistic view of what will be covered (or not) by a manufacture's warranty.

The bottom line is that you should know what you are getting into when you mod a car - and only you can weigh the benefits of the improvment vs. the undoubted factory warranty hassle that you have also purchased with your mod. Like many things in life, it's a question of balance. Pick the right mods, (perhaps less radical than is possible) and the right vendor (who may offer an additional warranty), then take care of your equipment. Oh yeah, and never tell anyone what you really put on your car or that you drove it over the speed limit or in some parking lot with cones on it or some winding road (course)

Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the original poster's problem of a paranoid company using the MM act to beat up on someone who, in good faith, modded their car, and is denied proper warranty coverage because of it. That just sucks.

 

My Mods:
- JCW Airbox
- JCW Injectors
- JCW DME
- Unichip
- Milltek header
- Milltek catback
- 15% pulley
- Head and cam

Problem - car will not idle properly. Does not throw codes, consistently idles 300 rpms or so higher than it should. Runs like a beast otherwise.

There is an existing TSB from Mini - #SIM120402 which states that there is a known problem with the portion of the wiring harness that feeds the throttle body. It is one of the longer service bulletins out there, numbering 5 pages. The TSB mentions that the throttle issues may or may not be accompanied by codes.

Included is a recommended in depth diagnostic procedure and fix which includes replacement of first the throttle body and then the harness.

The Dealer replaced the throttle body and the issue persisted. They called the Regional PUMA Rep for more information on the testing procedure. The Rep told them that BMW would not reimnburse them for any further work on the car.

This is not a case of an aftermarket head and engine failure, a reduction pulley and supercharger failure, it is a BLATANT case of BMW ducking a known problem and blaming it on non-related mods and my time at the track.

Anyway, good luck to the rest of you with your cars. Keep in mind that the MINI USA rep informed me directly that a goodly portion of their decision to sh**can my warranty came from the fact that I track the car. So all you JCW owners out there who track, don't assume that you won't be fisted by BMW in the future.

 

Skiploder, I hope your experience becomes a teaching tool for so many folks here that believe they can mod to their hearts content and still get away with it if they ever experience problems with their vehicles (The MM act is worthless). Modding is a very costly/risky business. This is why my MCS will remain 100% bone stock until the end of the factory warranty. The only mod I have planned for it is the installation of the JCW airbox, that's it.

Tracking your car can get you into trouble. MINI is not the only manufacturer cracking down on folks that race their cars. Mitsubishi is also known to automatically void warranties of owners of EVO's known to spend time in the track.

I respect all aftermarket vendors. Some of these guys are very knowledgeable and professional (Randy Webb, etc). But I think these folks need to be a little more proactive in warning their customers up front: You mod, you pay. Also it is good advice to heed in regards to selecting products with vendors that will offer some warranty and stand behind what they sell.

Good luck with the Elise. Before going that route, get yourself acquinted with Lotus' policies and practices when it comes to modding their vehicles. Perhaps you will leave this one alone, after all it is a terrific track car right out of the box.

 

Chris:

The law is not setup like that.

In order for there to be an issue, you have to call shenanigans when they charge you or threaten to charge you for work that should be covered under warranty.

At that point, you can take them to court under the M-M Act and once you get to court, they are technically required to PROVE that the mods in question led to the failure in question.

Unfortunately, time is not on your side. It takes a lot of time to even get to the point where the manufacturer has to back up their denial. In that time, your car may or may not be operable, or you may be out $$$$$ for the uncovered repair plus lawyer fees.

The manufacturer knows how to draw out the process in order to make it prohibitive to retain a lawyer for any period of time. In order to process the claim, you lawyer needs to spend time researching the issue, writing the correct letters, filing the correct paperwork, etc. At $300 an hour, plus staff time, the $$$$$$$ pile up.

The MM Act is noble in principal but becomes worthless in execution. The manufacturers pretty much will call your bluff - the odds favor them doing so.

 

Thanks. I have the same hope. With my luck, I'll leave the Elise bone stock and get caught at the track.

I have heard also that both BMW and Subie owners have been targeted for tracking their cars.

I can't remember whether is was Mitsubishi or Subaru that gave car buyers a club membership then prowled the events writing down VIN numbers and invalidating warranties on those who tracked/autocrossed - classy.

 

And the irony of it all is that MINIUSA actively encourages owners to participate in motorsports activities plus prize money...

 

You know, that really depends on the dealer. When I smoked a set of brake pads and rotors at the track last summer, my dealer replaced them under warranty. Also, MINI USA has a rather extensive contingency prize structure for motorsport competition. That seems to indicate the company supports grassroots efforts by owners.

But regardless, kidding aside, I'm very sorry you have had such trouble with a car that has given me no trouble at all and that I love. Bad luck. I wish you the best in the future.

Regards,
Sid

 

I was to a owner who went by the MM act and now I come to believe it is also worthless. If you do not have the time nor the money to go after a big corp. like BMW, it is not worth it. I to like modding my car and worry about some mods, but you have to mod in moderation. If you are the one that seeks to go above and beyond and seek the most out of your car and willing to take the risk, then you should know the what you are getting into if something were to go wrong. Believe me i had some issues with MINI/BMW when I first got my car in May 05 as they would not fix my aux input due to the fact that I installed my xm and tapped into the fuse box very cleanly and professionaly. I am no slouch when it comes to electrical stuff. And you know what is funny, I fixed it myself with something they coulud not have done in the first place. That was a ground loop isolator! If I seem like I am talking out of my "rear" I do appologize. All in all what I am trying to say is that if you mod something you need to know what the risks are and willing to take those risks.

Garrett

 

Seriously Sid - it was MINI USA who called me on the track time.......dealer has/had no idea...........so I'll continue to cling to my black helicopter theories.....

Other than the harness and a few rattles, the car's a screamer. For $1,200.00 bucks I will get the harness fixed and the next owner will have a fast, low mile MCS that should give him/her years of enjoyment.

I'm at the point where after years of owning BMW products, I'm ready for a change.........

Regardless, I appreciate your good thoughts and wish you the best of luck with your JCW.

 

I am going to jump in here again and say that as a previous Subaru owner, Subaru is tough as well when it comes to even minor mods done to your car. Even the evo owners have it pretty hard. There were talks about evo owners to getting written up by reps. for taking there cars to the strips, autox etc. No matter where you go, similar issues will be there as well. be it less harsh or even worse. It will not go away.

Garrett

 

This whole thing make me feel sad really as I am also to the point of giving up on brand who has made cars the SO and I love and have been involved with (we have had 6 late model BMWs/MINIs in as many years, have spents lots of money and actually helped promote and support the brand) due to the service issues and lack of support for innate defects. I am sorry to see what you had to go through and what lengths BMW will go to find reasons evade doing warranty work on known issues.

I've been on BMW forums since 1999 and as I found out how things seemed to be going with service tried to give some notice to people that the MM act would not likely protect them and frankly I am not happy to see that I was right.

Well, best of luck with your future car(s) - I'm sure you'll be checking out their forums and with your local service dept to see what its all about before you take the plunge.

 

After quite a few years and many thousands of dollars spent modding cars, some of them new, I've come to the realization that I'm better off buying a new car that performs like I want it, or buy an older used car that is well past warranty to modify. My Mini Cooper handles as well in stock form as my 2001 Neon ACR did with coilovers, poly bushings and big swaybars.

In addition to my Mini Cooper I'll be adding a new Mustang GT to the stable later this year, and plans are to get a new Corvette (Z06?) in a few years when our mortgage is paid off. I'm sure I won't be able to kick the modding habit entirely, but one of the reasons I got the Mini was that it is so great from the factory, without any mods.

-Keith

 

Will do. Thanks.

 

I wonder if this thread shouldn't be linked in some way to the thread in Performance Mods::Drivetrain ( https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=32569 ). That thread is a sticky thread and someone reading it could get the conclusion that M-M is a great way to get satisfaction. There is even one post to the effect that M-M is better than Lemon Law for recourse. (WRONG!!!!)

 

I agree. This thread should be renamed: "Warning: M-M lawsuit failed. Mod at your own risk".

 

TOTALLY DISAGREE ... until the following is cleared up ...

HIs last statement was "... the track issue - it came up and was cited as a cause for voiding my warranty." This was brought to my attention...

Skiploader ... Was it BOTH issues ... Mods & Track actually cited by BMW? Or just the Track?

 

I re-read his latest posts and I understand that BOTH mods and track usage affected the outcome of the litigation. However, the "Track usage" appears to have been the final nail.

Skiploder seems to be a well off individual and even having the time, resources and greenbacks available did not offer a favorable outcome.