Magnussen-Moss Act Lawsuit
#101
#102
#103
Originally Posted by CDMINI
Never have supported street racing and I have a perverse interest in keeping my vehicles showroom stock until warranty expires or even subsequent to. I think if someone wants to race they should have a paid for vehicle and not count on making warranty claims. Actual go-karts come to mind, open wheel or stock cars, SCCA, drags, on and off road bike racing. I think it's a poor idea to race or track your street vehicles. It voids your insurance and your finance agreements as well and IT SHOULD. The only security interest a financer has is your vehicle and people think it's OK to chance trashing that entire interest in a track or even street race. Same reason you can't take financed vehicles south of the border without voiding the agreement.. Things happen, why should anyone but the person who takes the risk be made to pay for it, eh?
#104
Originally Posted by Electric Shock
I don't understand what you are questioning.
#105
So what defines track use vs driver's ed/instruction? Didn't MINI sponser the Phil Wicks event? And what about BMWCCA driver's events? Then there are the ads, etc as people have mentioned.
The whole thing about it is that there is a difference between reasonable mod related warranty denial vs denial on issues BMW/MINI is aware of, has TSBs about, and design problems that result on the untouched untracked cars as well. That is the crux of the bad faith BMW shows and why its obviously pretty unscrupulous behavior and puts many off of the brand and also gets them bad word of mouth. Its not just about mods causing problems, tracking causing undo wear and tear, it is about the extended effort they go to to avoid warranty work many times (mods or not) Although the brand seems to advertise and want to appear to support the enthusiasts their actions indicate that really what BMW wants to be is Mercedes - have people buy the cars for brand status and use them to commute in and get good valet spaces. As I've said before, it is really very sad.
PS: Its also why I don't make anything but mostly cosmetic changes to my cars anymore so I'm not saying this because I have a modded car anymore. I also have never tracked my cars since I've been concerned (and its expensive to boot), its too bad, you'd think they'd want me to improve my driving skills
The whole thing about it is that there is a difference between reasonable mod related warranty denial vs denial on issues BMW/MINI is aware of, has TSBs about, and design problems that result on the untouched untracked cars as well. That is the crux of the bad faith BMW shows and why its obviously pretty unscrupulous behavior and puts many off of the brand and also gets them bad word of mouth. Its not just about mods causing problems, tracking causing undo wear and tear, it is about the extended effort they go to to avoid warranty work many times (mods or not) Although the brand seems to advertise and want to appear to support the enthusiasts their actions indicate that really what BMW wants to be is Mercedes - have people buy the cars for brand status and use them to commute in and get good valet spaces. As I've said before, it is really very sad.
PS: Its also why I don't make anything but mostly cosmetic changes to my cars anymore so I'm not saying this because I have a modded car anymore. I also have never tracked my cars since I've been concerned (and its expensive to boot), its too bad, you'd think they'd want me to improve my driving skills
#106
Originally Posted by caminifan
The borrower has also given a personal guarantee to get the finance contract approved.
#107
Originally Posted by caminifan
If I understood your previous post, you were saying that M-M is there to protect the consumer from a manufacturer's unilateral decision to void a factory warranty in the presence of aftermarket modifications (e.g. the manufacturer would have to prove that the aftermarket modification caused the failure and therefore, the manufacturer was within its rights to deny warranty coverage). The whole issue that Skiploder was posting about was that M-M is worthless as a source of recourse in the face of arbitrary decisions by BMW/MINI because of the costs (and aggravation) involved in getting to a verdict. Therefore, my question about the extent of your commitment to get to a verdict (and ultimately to a concluded apeal) on a M-M action.
All I was really doing in that part of that previous post was to repeat what the warranty actually says and to point out that the way the warranty reads. The warranty exclusions are harder on people who track than on people who mod. The warranty says that is you make a mod you risk voiding the warranty for any parts related to that mod. Whereas with someone who tracks - you risk a total and complete voiding of the warranty for all parts and everything related to the car.
#108
Originally Posted by CDMINI
Ever tried to collect on a judgment?
Originally Posted by CDMINI
Oh they can screw up someone's credit, but what money does that put in their pockets, nada...
#109
Originally Posted by Electric Shock
All I was really doing in that part of that previous post was to repeat what the warranty actually says and to point out that the way the warranty reads. The warranty exclusions are harder on people who track than on people who mod. The warranty says that is you make a mod you risk voiding the warranty for any parts related to that mod. Whereas with someone who tracks - you risk a total and complete voiding of the warranty for all parts and everything related to the car.
#110
Originally Posted by Electric Shock
No. To clarify. Magnuson-Moss does not forbid a manufacturer from voiding a warranty based on mods ...
I might be able to fit an "equivalent" air filter in my car, but if I fitted an "upgraded" one that changed the performance of the car, then MM is now irrelevant because the warranty says I can't do that.
-> The warranty can't say "don't fit anyone elses parts", but it can say "don't alter the performance"
Is that how it works?
#111
Originally Posted by caminifan
Once you have a judgement, it is fairly easy to collect. Wage garnishment is one remedy that comes to mind. There is some cost involved, but it is not prohibitive. If there is $20,000 owing on a personal guarantee, the finance company will definitely incur the cost of a wage garnishment action to get its pound of flesh back.
#112
Originally Posted by CDMINI
Interesting term "pound of flesh" for someone advocating personal financial responsibility.
Originally Posted by CDMINI
So, first depositions to identify non-exempt property to satisfy the judgment, or available wages in excess of those required to support the family of the judgment debtor. Sheriff to levy on the non-exempt property and auction or resale costs of same. Wage garnishment is an exteme remedy, requires a court order and all after notice and hearing, not a lot of judges will allow it if the family suffers from it. Not like child support, Gov't has an interest in having that money paid rather than have public support of children. So they get a garnishment action, how long to collect on the debt, 3 or 4 years, 7 to 10? Debtor moves, actions have to start all over again. Sure their credit is screwed, but that still doesn't PAY for the car.
#113
You sure the garnishment wasn't for back child support? I'll bet the finance company had to have a few court hearings before they got an order for that, or the debtor defaulted and never contested the debt or the garnishment. It's hard to believe it would be that easy , a money judgment and a garnishment, WOW! I thought you guys were called the LEFT Coast??
#114
Originally Posted by CDMINI
You sure the garnishment wasn't for back child support? I'll bet the finance company had to have a few court hearings before they got an order for that, or the debtor defaulted and never contested the debt or the garnishment. It's hard to believe it would be that easy , a money judgment and a garnishment, WOW! I thought you guys were called the LEFT Coast??
#115
Originally Posted by caminifan
Skiploder, out of curiousity, it appears as if you have sorted out your MINI quite well. Apart from the bile you feel toward BMW/MINI (and I fully agree with how you feel), why not just enjoy the car? Afterall, you did get the car to enjoy it....
Last evening when driving out to the Lotus dealer I took the Mini. Mind you it only has 8K miles on it and it's an 03.
We are in the midst of a cold spell (relative) here in the SF Bay and I took back roads all the way there and back, windows down, both the heater and stereo blasting away. As always, the car itself (Minis in general) can work magic. We're all owners so I'll spare you the rhapsodizing.....you all know what I'm talking about.
While I was driving the Elise, the Dealer took my car out for a spin in case I decided to trade it in. Not only did they not notice the high idle, but the appraiser commented on what a little rocket it was.
I'm not 100% sold on the Elise. When you get into that neighborhood, you start thinking about the new Boxster, then the Cayman, and so on.
I have spent the last 6 months making the idle issue into something larger than maybe it should have been, mainly because I love the freaking car so much and obsess about its little faults. Maybe what I ought to do is fix the harness now and then cut my ties with BMW. I have a good mechanic here and I can always get Mr. Webb and his warranty on the remaining major components. Heck, I'm almost a year away from being out of factory warranty anyway...
So maybe after divorcing myself from MiniUSA and the Dealer, I can begin to enjoy my car again for what it is.
On Monday, my wife and kids will be at a play date for most of the morning. I plan on trying to see if the car can help me forget the headaches with a three hour run on some of my favorite backroads...........
#116
Originally Posted by eVal
So what defines track use vs driver's ed/instruction? Didn't MINI sponser the Phil Wicks event? And what about BMWCCA driver's events? Then there are the ads, etc as people have mentioned.
The whole thing about it is that there is a difference between reasonable mod related warranty denial vs denial on issues BMW/MINI is aware of, has TSBs about, and design problems that result on the untouched untracked cars as well. That is the crux of the bad faith BMW shows and why its obviously pretty unscrupulous behavior and puts many off of the brand and also gets them bad word of mouth. Its not just about mods causing problems, tracking causing undo wear and tear, it is about the extended effort they go to to avoid warranty work many times (mods or not) Although the brand seems to advertise and want to appear to support the enthusiasts their actions indicate that really what BMW wants to be is Mercedes - have people buy the cars for brand status and use them to commute in and get good valet spaces. As I've said before, it is really very sad.
The offer made on my behalf to Mini was this: Perform the outlined diagnosis as per the TSB - if the issue is unrelated, I will pay for the diagnosis, if the issue is related, you pick up the tab. I was told they would not even diagnose the car until it been returned to 100% stock.
This is silly because the outlined test is basically to:
1. Check the throttle body production date - replace if produced prior to January 2002.
2. Conduct a throttle body wiring harness connector check using the DISPlus measuring system.
3. Run a potentiometer test.
4. While moving the throttle plate, monitor and observe the square wave amplitude transition changes for uniformity.
5. Perform a wiggle test on the harness connector pins and check for clean waveform.
6. If the TB was produced prior to 01/05/02 and the wiring test is OK, replace TB.
7. If the TB was produced after 01/05/02 and the wiring test is OK, replace the wiring harness.
8. If the wiring test is not OK, replace both the TB and the harness.
Seems pretty cut and dried - no blown head gasket, no smoked supercharger - just a known wiring problem that is widespread enough to issue a TSB. It has nothing to do with racing and removing my mods would not alter the diagnosing procedure one iota.
#117
Originally Posted by caminifan
This sounds like a distinction without a difference.... BMW decided to void the warranty. Period. Whether the warranty voiding decision was due to an aftermarket modification or the car being tracked or even both, matters not one little bit in regard to the worthlessness of M-M. If you are going to rely on M-M to force the issue with any manufacturer, you have an uphill battle because the manufacturer has more resources that it can deploy in the fight. Skiploder didn't post what the law firm may have given him as an estimate to get to a verdict, but it isn't cheap in California. A reasonably simple case can easily run north of $100,000 for just the trial outcome. Then you have to figure on the cost of the apeal, because there will be an apeal.
The Cliff Notes version of this thread is that if you think that M-M is a viable tool to force a manufacturer to honor its warranty obligations, you better be prepared to put serious cash on the line. And, personally for a MINI, 100 large is just not worth it. I have dropped cash on litigation, but it was over a business survival issue, not over who was going to pay for a $1,000 vehicle repair.
The Cliff Notes version of this thread is that if you think that M-M is a viable tool to force a manufacturer to honor its warranty obligations, you better be prepared to put serious cash on the line. And, personally for a MINI, 100 large is just not worth it. I have dropped cash on litigation, but it was over a business survival issue, not over who was going to pay for a $1,000 vehicle repair.
C4 said This thread should be renamed: "Warning: M-M lawsuit failed. Mod at your own risk".
I said TOTALLY DISAGREE ... until the following is cleared up .. Was it BOTH issues ... Mods & Track actually cited by BMW? Or just the Track?
Skiploader now says both. I wasnt asking anything about the "worthlessness" of MM ... just the cause of the warranty denial.
#118
Be careful if you're considering an Elise. If you think BMW/MINI is touchy about warranty stuff, Lotus can be much worse. Althought they're a small company, Lotus product support is really dependent on the situation; **** 'em off and they'll simply ignore you. Modifications are particularly frowned upon by Lotus USA.
Just a word of advice from one who has owned a couple of Lotus cars over the years.
Just a word of advice from one who has owned a couple of Lotus cars over the years.
#119
Originally Posted by Skiploder
... the car itself (Minis in general) can work magic. We're all owners so I'll spare you the rhapsodizing ... see if the car can help me forget the headaches with a three hour run on some of my favorite backroads
In the end, it seems many MINI owners can ignore all sorts of quirks / features / creaks / etc because of the pleasure of motoring
#120
Originally Posted by Skiploder
...I have spent the last 6 months making the idle issue into something larger than maybe it should have been, mainly because I love the freaking car so much and obsess about its little faults. Maybe what I ought to do is fix the harness now and then cut my ties with BMW. I have a good mechanic here and I can always get Mr. Webb and his warranty on the remaining major components. Heck, I'm almost a year away from being out of factory warranty anyway...
So maybe after divorcing myself from MiniUSA and the Dealer, I can begin to enjoy my car again for what it is.
On Monday, my wife and kids will be at a play date for most of the morning. I plan on trying to see if the car can help me forget the headaches with a three hour run on some of my favorite backroads...........
So maybe after divorcing myself from MiniUSA and the Dealer, I can begin to enjoy my car again for what it is.
On Monday, my wife and kids will be at a play date for most of the morning. I plan on trying to see if the car can help me forget the headaches with a three hour run on some of my favorite backroads...........
#121
Funny about tracking the cars...
Aren't these sold in Germany, where there are roads with no speed limit? So driving too fast can't really be an issue. While it may not be wise to turn sharply, there's certainly no specific law against it, so it can't be large lateral forces that are at fault. It's all a load of horsesh*t that BMW/Mini is spewing, and we all know it. They found their excuse, can afford to push the issue to the point where all but a large corporation could push it to proper conclusion, stuck it to an owner, and will walk away from the issue.
Sad that they'd choose not to keep loyal customers, and loose a previous repeat buyer (skiploader) in the process, all for what has a consumer cost of $1,200!
Matt
Sad that they'd choose not to keep loyal customers, and loose a previous repeat buyer (skiploader) in the process, all for what has a consumer cost of $1,200!
Matt
#122
Originally Posted by Skiploder
MINI USA is of no help and maintains that any, yes any modifications to the car void the warranty.
One story I will mention. I purchased my aftermarket wheels/tires before my car arrived, and I asked my MA about having them installed before I took delivery of the car. The word from the service department was that they would install them only along with a $400 alignment; otherwise the warranty would be voided. I simply swapped out the wheels myself, but it could be a clue that my dealer (MINI of San Francisco) plays hardball on the warranty/modification issue.
By the way, I'm sure that MINIUSA is following this thread with interest.
#123
#124
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
Aren't these sold in Germany, where there are roads with no speed limit? So driving too fast can't really be an issue. While it may not be wise to turn sharply, there's certainly no specific law against it, so it can't be large lateral forces that are at fault. It's all a load of horsesh*t that BMW/Mini is spewing, and we all know it. They found their excuse, can afford to push the issue to the point where all but a large corporation could push it to proper conclusion, stuck it to an owner, and will walk away from the issue.
Sad that they'd choose not to keep loyal customers, and loose a previous repeat buyer (skiploader) in the process, all for what has a consumer cost of $1,200!
Matt
Sad that they'd choose not to keep loyal customers, and loose a previous repeat buyer (skiploader) in the process, all for what has a consumer cost of $1,200!
Matt
#125
Originally Posted by rkw
I'd like to understand what it means that a warranty is voided, and implications. The impression I've gotten from this thread is that as soon as the dealer sees my 19mm swaybar, they can be in a position of claiming that they are no longer under any obligation and could deny free maintenance service (oil changes, etc.) or repair of manufacturing defects. Is that correct?
One story I will mention. I purchased my aftermarket wheels/tires before my car arrived, and I asked my MA about having them installed before I took delivery of the car. The word from the service department was that they would install them only along with a $400 alignment; otherwise the warranty would be voided. I simply swapped out the wheels myself, but it could be a clue that my dealer (MINI of San Francisco) plays hardball on the warranty/modification issue.
By the way, I'm sure that MINIUSA is following this thread with interest.
One story I will mention. I purchased my aftermarket wheels/tires before my car arrived, and I asked my MA about having them installed before I took delivery of the car. The word from the service department was that they would install them only along with a $400 alignment; otherwise the warranty would be voided. I simply swapped out the wheels myself, but it could be a clue that my dealer (MINI of San Francisco) plays hardball on the warranty/modification issue.
By the way, I'm sure that MINIUSA is following this thread with interest.
Keep in mind that my issues did not arise because the dealer had issues with my mods, in fact they cheerfully began working on the car in an attempt to resolve the issue. They spent almost a full two days trying to sort things out. They swapped out the throttle body under warranty and checked for vacuum leaks, the bypass valve, etc.
The problem came when they called the Mini/BMW techline for additional information on the problem. It was only after Mini/BMW got involved that the dealer was told to stop working on the car as they would not be reimbursed.
So with just an aftermarket sway bar, I would not think that most reasonable dealers would have an issue with your pwertrain and I would certainly hope that neither would BMW.
No mention has been made of cancellation of free maintenance. Hmmmm...............