Suspension Coilover vs springs
#1
Coilover vs springs
So i was wondering how many people went with springs to lower their mini and then got coilovers because of the performance of springs.
Also if you use coilovers that don't have dampeners (is that the proper term?) then what advantage would such coilovers have vs. springs alone.
And if you do get coilovers then am i going to need control arms and camber plates?
I have a 09 MCS with a 19mm rear sway bar. So far i do only street driving but like to push my car when i find roads that allow me to let loose. I loved the sway bar but after a few months i became so used to it i wouldn't mind getting more while cornering. The price difference is so drastic... I need more info. Regardless, dropping the car is my next mission
Also if you use coilovers that don't have dampeners (is that the proper term?) then what advantage would such coilovers have vs. springs alone.
And if you do get coilovers then am i going to need control arms and camber plates?
I have a 09 MCS with a 19mm rear sway bar. So far i do only street driving but like to push my car when i find roads that allow me to let loose. I loved the sway bar but after a few months i became so used to it i wouldn't mind getting more while cornering. The price difference is so drastic... I need more info. Regardless, dropping the car is my next mission
#3
Springs will do wonders for looks on the R56. They lower the car's center of gravity a bit which does help in stability and cornering. The big problem is that you lose 1.5" from the total suspension travel of 5". I've had H&R lowering springs on my R56 for over 20,000 miles and I've definitely bottomed out my dampers more than a few times. The other issue is that the springs aren't matched that well to the stock dampers. Regardless, they do improve the look and offer minimal performance benefit. I think they are worth it if you're just looking to get your foot in the door.
James is right when stating you get what you pay for. Good coilovers will have stainless damper bodies, adjustable damping/rebound, and they'll make your MINI handle much much much better than stock! Camber plates are included in some sets like those from Cross or BC. Camber plates are not very useful for the daily commute on straight roads, but for more curvy roads, auto-x, and tracking they are a nice thing to have. I've done a lot of research into coilovers for my R56 this year, but opting to stay away since I used the money to invest in a ECU tune. Texas Speed Werks KW coilovers seem to be one of the best ways to go. Dr. Mike did extensive testing with KW on the track to optimize the spring and damper selection used in all variants of the KW V-series coilover. I was about to jump for the TSW KW V2 set but then an ECU tuning party was announced in my town
James is right when stating you get what you pay for. Good coilovers will have stainless damper bodies, adjustable damping/rebound, and they'll make your MINI handle much much much better than stock! Camber plates are included in some sets like those from Cross or BC. Camber plates are not very useful for the daily commute on straight roads, but for more curvy roads, auto-x, and tracking they are a nice thing to have. I've done a lot of research into coilovers for my R56 this year, but opting to stay away since I used the money to invest in a ECU tune. Texas Speed Werks KW coilovers seem to be one of the best ways to go. Dr. Mike did extensive testing with KW on the track to optimize the spring and damper selection used in all variants of the KW V-series coilover. I was about to jump for the TSW KW V2 set but then an ECU tuning party was announced in my town
#6
i would like to stay in $2k range, so if i can get a quality coilover that doesn't need anything else for $1,700 or so, i'm alright with that. But if other mods will be necessary then it would easily become a $2,500 job.
#7
you will need control arms with any 30mm or more drop. the springs provided by bc are a little stiff and can bind when compressed once equipped with swift springs the bc come alive and have a very good ride.
Bilstein and kw are quality products but with less features .To get the best performance from the kw or bilstein both should have swift or hyperco springs installed along with camberplates .
Bilstein and kw are quality products but with less features .To get the best performance from the kw or bilstein both should have swift or hyperco springs installed along with camberplates .
Trending Topics
#8
As someone said, there's 5 inches of travel on these cars stock struts, but that's 5 inches TOTAL. As in compression and droop (aka extension). The majority of that is droop.
As for compression travel, you're essentially on the bumpstops at rest, so lowering an inch into the bumpstops sucks.
So with that in mind i'd avoid lowering the car on stock struts and go to coilovers.
You don't need camber plates to keep tire wear from getting messed up....they just let you get a lot of camber for the track or auto-x. And they are a metal plate, so response/feedback is more direct, and sometimes harshness.
Swift springs are a nice upgrade for BC's because they standard BC springs suck. The valving isn't very good either in my opinion....i'm not a BC fan. Lots of "features" but poor valving.
Rear control arms would probably be a good idea if you plan on lowering the car.
I recommend the Ireland Engineering fixed camber plates for daily drivers and "light track" use. You can't adjust them but it's not a metal plate, so the ride is not diminished and they'll last forever as opposed to the crappy plates that come on a lot of low end coilovers with weak bearings that get loose and make noise over time. The IE camber mounts are pretty cheap too.
Adjustable damping isn't really 100% necessary either....it's a nice to have, not a must have IMO. GOOD damping is much more important....doesn't do you any good if you can adjust damping, but your adjustments range from crap to horrible.
- Andrew
As for compression travel, you're essentially on the bumpstops at rest, so lowering an inch into the bumpstops sucks.
So with that in mind i'd avoid lowering the car on stock struts and go to coilovers.
You don't need camber plates to keep tire wear from getting messed up....they just let you get a lot of camber for the track or auto-x. And they are a metal plate, so response/feedback is more direct, and sometimes harshness.
Swift springs are a nice upgrade for BC's because they standard BC springs suck. The valving isn't very good either in my opinion....i'm not a BC fan. Lots of "features" but poor valving.
Rear control arms would probably be a good idea if you plan on lowering the car.
I recommend the Ireland Engineering fixed camber plates for daily drivers and "light track" use. You can't adjust them but it's not a metal plate, so the ride is not diminished and they'll last forever as opposed to the crappy plates that come on a lot of low end coilovers with weak bearings that get loose and make noise over time. The IE camber mounts are pretty cheap too.
Adjustable damping isn't really 100% necessary either....it's a nice to have, not a must have IMO. GOOD damping is much more important....doesn't do you any good if you can adjust damping, but your adjustments range from crap to horrible.
- Andrew
#9
- Andrew
#10
I agree ,but if the budget did not allow for replacement springs my choice between the kw and bilstein brands would be the tsw kw v2 .the bilsteins are great and come with inverted struts/shock and the adjusters on the bottom of the assembly but the tsw kw v2 have had so much development time invested that the ease of setup, performance and ride are hard to beat in the 1700 to 2200 dollar range of coilovers.
#11
I totally agree with that. I might have misunderstood what you said actually...the standard rates aren't great (not terrible, but not great) for either in terms of track performance....they really should come with linear springs. The quality is fine, just the rates which is probably what you meant.
The TSW KW's sound great and have a lot of knowledge and Mini-specific testing behind them. Good rates and the after sale support to back them up.
- Andrew
The TSW KW's sound great and have a lot of knowledge and Mini-specific testing behind them. Good rates and the after sale support to back them up.
- Andrew
#12
#13
Swift springs are a nice upgrade for BC's because they standard BC springs suck. The valving isn't very good either in my opinion....i'm not a BC fan. Lots of "features" but poor valving.
Rear control arms would probably be a good idea if you plan on lowering the car.
I recommend the Ireland Engineering fixed camber plates for daily drivers and "light track" use. You can't adjust them but it's not a metal plate, so the ride is not diminished and they'll last forever as opposed to the crappy plates that come on a lot of low end coilovers with weak bearings that get loose and make noise over time. The IE camber mounts are pretty cheap too.
Adjustable damping isn't really 100% necessary either....it's a nice to have, not a must have IMO. GOOD damping is much more important....doesn't do you any good if you can adjust damping, but your adjustments range from crap to horrible.
- Andrew
Rear control arms would probably be a good idea if you plan on lowering the car.
I recommend the Ireland Engineering fixed camber plates for daily drivers and "light track" use. You can't adjust them but it's not a metal plate, so the ride is not diminished and they'll last forever as opposed to the crappy plates that come on a lot of low end coilovers with weak bearings that get loose and make noise over time. The IE camber mounts are pretty cheap too.
Adjustable damping isn't really 100% necessary either....it's a nice to have, not a must have IMO. GOOD damping is much more important....doesn't do you any good if you can adjust damping, but your adjustments range from crap to horrible.
- Andrew
#15
I'd bet a paycheck that if you put them on a shock dyno, you'd find that they're toast already. Heck, 36k miles on these el cheapo shocks even on the stock springs is enough to send them to the showers.
#16
So based on the posts and what i looked into the KW V2 with IE camber plates and whatever brand control arm will put me in the $2300 range. I am really looking for a street car that can perform when i need it to and hopefully i can get on a track but it would not be frequent. I like to push my car to the limit whenever i find a road that allows me to do so. So i'm guessing i don't really need to invest in swift springs? I want to buy once and be satisfied, so i would put in the extra money in order to prevent myself from wishing i had something else. Would you say the KW V2 has the adequate damping or is it an adjustable that can be adjusted from crap to horrible (as you put it Andy)
#18
Okay this is my two pennies. I too have a street performance that only sees a track occasionally, and it seems like you're in the same boat that I was in at about this time last year. So maybe this will be some helpful logic.
I started with TSW springs. Everyone that I talked to raved about them, and they were the only spring that I hadn't heard any real complaints about (at the time). Handling was phenomenal; ride was even better. However, I was never really satisfied with the minimal drop.
So... I spent about two to three months researching coilovers and talking to the owners of many different brands and variants as well as to some vendors that seemed to know a thing or two about suspension setups and practicality (mainly Jeff Bibbee and Way). Here's the thing about damping adjustments (I was really concerned about this myself when I was shopping)... most folks that I've talked to set their damping in the middle and never touch it again. (It's also kind of a pain in the @$$ to have take your rear struts out just to turn a **** a click to the left or a click to the right.) So, in my opinion, for a street setup especially, you probably won't get much out of having damping adjustments. If anything, it'll just make things unnecessarily complicated. With that said, for me it came down to a choice between KW V1's ($1200) and VMaxx (>$600). I went with KW's and I'm very VERY happy with them and I don't regret anything about the purchase at all. KW's factory damper settings are pretty awesome, and I couldn't have done it better myself (literally). I also know plenty of folks who are running VMaxx that really like them as well. They're basically KW V1's with slightly 'defunct' damper settings. "Defunct" in the sense that they're not exactly the world's biggest performance upgrade. But they shouldn't be any worse than stock. In other words, they're great if you just want to get lower on a budget.
With all that said... IMO, there's no point in buying springs anymore. If you want the best performance, springs aren't the answer. And if you just want to get lower A) springs don't get you very low and B) you'll likely have to get new struts anyway and VMaxx coils are as cheap if not cheaper than buying springs and struts AND they'll get you heck of a lot lower.
Also... for a street setup, I'm not sure that I'd spend the extra cash on the TSW KW's. I'd have think about it. TSW had just released those when I bought mine, so I might have gotten talked into it if I knew anyone that had them at the time. Just something to think about. I'm sure they're great. TSW does incredibly things with suspension components. Just not sure that it would be any benefit for street. But take that with a grain of salt, I've never ridden on them and I don't know a whole lot about them.
On the camber plates... They'd be nice to have and can be especially helpful in getting the car super low. Personally, I'm holding out for some H-sports for the R56. But generally, I think they're a wonderful idea even for street.
I started with TSW springs. Everyone that I talked to raved about them, and they were the only spring that I hadn't heard any real complaints about (at the time). Handling was phenomenal; ride was even better. However, I was never really satisfied with the minimal drop.
So... I spent about two to three months researching coilovers and talking to the owners of many different brands and variants as well as to some vendors that seemed to know a thing or two about suspension setups and practicality (mainly Jeff Bibbee and Way). Here's the thing about damping adjustments (I was really concerned about this myself when I was shopping)... most folks that I've talked to set their damping in the middle and never touch it again. (It's also kind of a pain in the @$$ to have take your rear struts out just to turn a **** a click to the left or a click to the right.) So, in my opinion, for a street setup especially, you probably won't get much out of having damping adjustments. If anything, it'll just make things unnecessarily complicated. With that said, for me it came down to a choice between KW V1's ($1200) and VMaxx (>$600). I went with KW's and I'm very VERY happy with them and I don't regret anything about the purchase at all. KW's factory damper settings are pretty awesome, and I couldn't have done it better myself (literally). I also know plenty of folks who are running VMaxx that really like them as well. They're basically KW V1's with slightly 'defunct' damper settings. "Defunct" in the sense that they're not exactly the world's biggest performance upgrade. But they shouldn't be any worse than stock. In other words, they're great if you just want to get lower on a budget.
With all that said... IMO, there's no point in buying springs anymore. If you want the best performance, springs aren't the answer. And if you just want to get lower A) springs don't get you very low and B) you'll likely have to get new struts anyway and VMaxx coils are as cheap if not cheaper than buying springs and struts AND they'll get you heck of a lot lower.
Also... for a street setup, I'm not sure that I'd spend the extra cash on the TSW KW's. I'd have think about it. TSW had just released those when I bought mine, so I might have gotten talked into it if I knew anyone that had them at the time. Just something to think about. I'm sure they're great. TSW does incredibly things with suspension components. Just not sure that it would be any benefit for street. But take that with a grain of salt, I've never ridden on them and I don't know a whole lot about them.
On the camber plates... They'd be nice to have and can be especially helpful in getting the car super low. Personally, I'm holding out for some H-sports for the R56. But generally, I think they're a wonderful idea even for street.
Last edited by MoxieMini; 03-13-2010 at 07:14 PM.
#20
Thank you for all of that input, but i'm kind of a MORE type person so i would be concerned buying the lower end just to regret it....in reality when it comes down to it, i have no real need for the coilovers haha so its really up to how much money i want to blow on them. The whole modding aspect serves no real purpose other then its what i want to do, although i do enjoy the increase performance. As you mentioned... i am never going to take my struts off just to adjust the settings...Maybe once if it was necessary. With that said, i also wish i had the 22mm rear sway bar instead of the 19mm because i want MORE but in reality i don't need it and it would be a waste of money to buy another sway bar. So that is an example of what i am trying to avoid...and that is with a $200 part.
Last edited by iporkgoats; 03-13-2010 at 10:50 PM.
#22
So i was wondering how many people went with springs to lower their mini and then got coilovers because of the performance of springs.
Also if you use coilovers that don't have dampeners (is that the proper term?) then what advantage would such coilovers have vs. springs alone.
And if you do get coilovers then am i going to need control arms and camber plates?
I have a 09 MCS with a 19mm rear sway bar. So far i do only street driving but like to push my car when i find roads that allow me to let loose. I loved the sway bar but after a few months i became so used to it i wouldn't mind getting more while cornering. The price difference is so drastic... I need more info. Regardless, dropping the car is my next mission
Also if you use coilovers that don't have dampeners (is that the proper term?) then what advantage would such coilovers have vs. springs alone.
And if you do get coilovers then am i going to need control arms and camber plates?
I have a 09 MCS with a 19mm rear sway bar. So far i do only street driving but like to push my car when i find roads that allow me to let loose. I loved the sway bar but after a few months i became so used to it i wouldn't mind getting more while cornering. The price difference is so drastic... I need more info. Regardless, dropping the car is my next mission
also... technically speaking we run a "coilover" setup to begin with... coil over is just an overly generalized term for aftermarket usually one piece setups.
i personally would suggest just getting a set of FSDs and any lowering spring... TSW would be the only linear spring besides JCW out there, and NM and H&R are popular as well. if you're running a daily driver i don't think you could possibly get any better than FSDs and a lowering spring. if you decide you want coilovers, you'll 90% of the time be giving up some comfort for the extra handling... upside of coilovers are corner balancing which make a big difference when handling the car. if you want info on that i could tell you the basics of it, that's the only HUGE upside of coilovers over dampers and lowering springs.
if coilovers are the way you go, have fun. Camber plates and control arms are only needed if you want to increase camber. otherwise you'll get a little bit of negative camber just from the normal drop... the slots in the MINI suspension give you approx. -0.6 degrees of camber. so you can get a decent amount from lowering springs.
i'm planning on selling my coilovers (see Marketplace) for a slightly softer setup. details on those are in the marketplace as well...
+1
Last edited by dunphyj; 03-14-2010 at 05:19 PM.
#23
For $2k, I wouldn't go past the TSW KW V2. They come with linear rate KW Race springs, which aren't far off Swift springs in terms of quality/linearity (from what I hear). Valving is optimal and tailor-made to the mini (there is no other shock out there that can promise that). In terms of valving adjustment, KW aren't the best, but they certainly are not bad. Stay away from asian coilovers (BC, cross).
I'm personally going to get Eibach Multi-PRO R2 (<2k), simply because I like Koni Race shocks more than KW's, and they have remote reservoirs. Only problem with them are the 5k spring rates (too soft). I'll replace them with stiffer swifts when I can afford them. But if you want a coilover system that you'll never have to modify, TSW KW V2s are the only way to go (IMO).
Another option is Bilstein PSS10s (or PSS9s) with swift springs, but that again will be more expensive. Bilstein dampers are even better than Koni's, but you won't get the adjustability of the Eibach Multi-Pro's, which isn't really a big deal.
What's your total budget for coilovers, camber plates, control arms, and installation?
I'm personally going to get Eibach Multi-PRO R2 (<2k), simply because I like Koni Race shocks more than KW's, and they have remote reservoirs. Only problem with them are the 5k spring rates (too soft). I'll replace them with stiffer swifts when I can afford them. But if you want a coilover system that you'll never have to modify, TSW KW V2s are the only way to go (IMO).
Another option is Bilstein PSS10s (or PSS9s) with swift springs, but that again will be more expensive. Bilstein dampers are even better than Koni's, but you won't get the adjustability of the Eibach Multi-Pro's, which isn't really a big deal.
What's your total budget for coilovers, camber plates, control arms, and installation?
#24
#25