Suspension JCW brake question
#7
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#10
No, there is a reflash for the JCW brakes. It tells the brake controller about the uprated hardware.
See page 5
http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-conte...jcw_brakes.pdf
See page 5
http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-conte...jcw_brakes.pdf
#12
Where does it say anything about the brake controller? I see new pads which have new sensors?
Brakes are always left mechanical in case of electrical failures. I could see the system needing to be updated on new hardware for pad sensors... not for the "brake controller" which definitely should not be electric.
Abs - works off of wheel speed sensors on the hubs. Not as advanced as you would wish.
Dsc/Asc - as a tech i have never had experience with dsc but if it is like other traction systems it will also receive signal from the WSS's
Etc... - lol modulate your foot
But back on subject, there is no sensors that relate size and other measurements
Brakes are always left mechanical in case of electrical failures. I could see the system needing to be updated on new hardware for pad sensors... not for the "brake controller" which definitely should not be electric.
Abs - works off of wheel speed sensors on the hubs. Not as advanced as you would wish.
Dsc/Asc - as a tech i have never had experience with dsc but if it is like other traction systems it will also receive signal from the WSS's
Etc... - lol modulate your foot
But back on subject, there is no sensors that relate size and other measurements
Last edited by Bigprfed22; 09-10-2010 at 05:19 AM.
#14
"Encode retrofit with software service station(sss) via the path : retrofit/sports brakes-" *directory of the software.
Performance or performance of braking is included in that statement? Or could it be pad sensors are different for service warnings etc?
Im not turning this to a moment but...
The 3 years i was a trans specialist/ general tech (left the profession because it was to slow for myself) and in all my studys i have never seen a car / race car with an electric brake controller. the only application that i have seen this is in towing setups. Race cars have a mechanical bias controller rarely but never electrical.
I believe its due to new pad sensors. I have upgraded many brake systems to high performance standards and never have had to due a flash. the abs system runs almost independently from the actual brakes when it comes to monitoring.
Performance or performance of braking is included in that statement? Or could it be pad sensors are different for service warnings etc?
Im not turning this to a moment but...
The 3 years i was a trans specialist/ general tech (left the profession because it was to slow for myself) and in all my studys i have never seen a car / race car with an electric brake controller. the only application that i have seen this is in towing setups. Race cars have a mechanical bias controller rarely but never electrical.
I believe its due to new pad sensors. I have upgraded many brake systems to high performance standards and never have had to due a flash. the abs system runs almost independently from the actual brakes when it comes to monitoring.
Last edited by Bigprfed22; 09-10-2010 at 08:31 AM.
#15
#16
I wrote "paraphase" Not being a tech myself I am increasing suprised by the number of things that are ecu related on modern cars. I have always know brake systems to be mechanical. Maybe a better question is "has anyone installed wilwood's or stoptech's and ran into problems?"
Thats what i was going to get at, ive done 2 close friends minis and now issues or flashes. I think mini and JCW specifically number their kits. good but the real answer would come from a tech or someone who had retro fitted them the dealer way.
#19
I added the JCW big brake kit to my 09 MCS myself and did not have the dealer do the brake update for the larger brakes. I assume that it is just a recalibration for the ABS and DSC for have much more stopping power in the front as opposed to the rear. I have tracked my car many times using the ABS and did not feel that there was any need to have the recalibration done. You all should be fine with any big brake kit you do since you are basically adding more brake bias to the front and not the rear which is a good thing for safety. I'm sure the factory has different parameters for the larger brakes since thats just the German way of doing things but is not detrimental if you don't.
#21
I added the JCW big brake kit to my 09 MCS myself and did not have the dealer do the brake update for the larger brakes. I assume that it is just a recalibration for the ABS and DSC for have much more stopping power in the front as opposed to the rear. I have tracked my car many times using the ABS and did not feel that there was any need to have the recalibration done. You all should be fine with any big brake kit you do since you are basically adding more brake bias to the front and not the rear which is a good thing for safety. I'm sure the factory has different parameters for the larger brakes since thats just the German way of doing things but is not detrimental if you don't.
#22
#23
#24
I just fitted the JCW brakes to my '10 S and will perform the update myself in house.
I can tell you that my experience road racing, ABS systems either need to be reprogrammed or disabled when significant changes to the car are made. These changes include but are not limited to, weight, tire adhesion capabilities, size of brake system (total caliper volume, pad size etc.).
On the street you will more than likely NOT experience bad side affects of the changes. However in a racing situation I have had my ABS do things you would never see on the street. I no longer race with the ABS system enabled in the car. A near death experience at Buttonwillow will do things like that to you. FWIW Germany has the TUV which approves every part installed on a car that will hit their roads. I imagine that this approval process had a lot to do with the need for the system update.
The advantage of an engineered system like Brembo or the JCW setup is that a lot is taken into consideration in the design of the braking systems.
My 2 bits, now I'm broke...
Gratuitous beauty shot:
I can tell you that my experience road racing, ABS systems either need to be reprogrammed or disabled when significant changes to the car are made. These changes include but are not limited to, weight, tire adhesion capabilities, size of brake system (total caliper volume, pad size etc.).
On the street you will more than likely NOT experience bad side affects of the changes. However in a racing situation I have had my ABS do things you would never see on the street. I no longer race with the ABS system enabled in the car. A near death experience at Buttonwillow will do things like that to you. FWIW Germany has the TUV which approves every part installed on a car that will hit their roads. I imagine that this approval process had a lot to do with the need for the system update.
The advantage of an engineered system like Brembo or the JCW setup is that a lot is taken into consideration in the design of the braking systems.
My 2 bits, now I'm broke...
Gratuitous beauty shot:
#25
With the JCW Sport Brakes being much bigger, on both front and rear, than stock brakes the ECU needs to be aware of this fact.
The ECU is controlling a multitude of things with regards to the brakes which includes Anti-lock brakes (ABS), Corner Brake Control (CBC), Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD), Dynamic Stability Control (DSC), Dynamic Traction Control (DTC) and possibly controlling all five of these systems at once. If the ECU does not know the MINI has bigger brakes it will not correctly control the above mentioned safety systems.
A quick read below should clear up why the ECU flash is needed.
A typical ABS is composed of a central electronic unit, four speed sensors (one for each wheel), and two or more hydraulic valves on the brake circuit. The electronic unit constantly monitors the rotation speed of each wheel. When it senses that one or more wheel is rotating slower than the others (a condition that will bring it to lock) it moves the valves to decrease the pressure on the braking circuit, effectively reducing the braking force on that wheel.
Cornering Brake Control (CBC) assists drivers when braking gently on a curve. The redistribution of the vehicle's weight as it turns can cause it to oversteer if they brake are applied. CBC counteracts this tendency: it stabilises the automobile by applying brake pressure to one side of the automobile, even if the driver brakes outside the normal range of ABS.
The EBD system controls front-to-rear brake distribution, shifting braking force to the rear when the vehicle is loaded with people and/or luggage.
Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) not only optimizes driving stability when starting or accelerating, it also improves traction. In addition, the system recognizes unstable driving conditions such as under - or oversteering and helps to maintain a safe course for the vehicle. Advanced sensory technology monitors the wheel rotation speed, lateral acceleration and the yaw rate (rotation around the vertical axis). This data is processed to obtain information about the automobile as it is currently moving, and is compared with data about how it should be currently moving, as supplied by the accelerator and the angle of the steering wheel. If these two lists of data do not match and the automobile's stability is threatened, DSC is activated and influences the brake system or the engine management. This action helps prevent dangerous situations such as skidding.
Dynamic traction control is a function of the DSC. DTC is used in situations where some wheel slip is needed, for example when driving in snowy conditions. This will allow the tires to slip enough to gain traction and momentum to get the vehicle moving on slick conditions. When DTC is active, DSC is still active but its control is modified to lessen interventions. DTC increases traction by locking up specific wheels to allow the ones with more traction to move the vehicle.
So explain to me again why you would not want to flash the ECU?
It's your MINI so don't cut corners on the important things, LIKE BRAKES!!!
The ECU is controlling a multitude of things with regards to the brakes which includes Anti-lock brakes (ABS), Corner Brake Control (CBC), Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD), Dynamic Stability Control (DSC), Dynamic Traction Control (DTC) and possibly controlling all five of these systems at once. If the ECU does not know the MINI has bigger brakes it will not correctly control the above mentioned safety systems.
A quick read below should clear up why the ECU flash is needed.
A typical ABS is composed of a central electronic unit, four speed sensors (one for each wheel), and two or more hydraulic valves on the brake circuit. The electronic unit constantly monitors the rotation speed of each wheel. When it senses that one or more wheel is rotating slower than the others (a condition that will bring it to lock) it moves the valves to decrease the pressure on the braking circuit, effectively reducing the braking force on that wheel.
Cornering Brake Control (CBC) assists drivers when braking gently on a curve. The redistribution of the vehicle's weight as it turns can cause it to oversteer if they brake are applied. CBC counteracts this tendency: it stabilises the automobile by applying brake pressure to one side of the automobile, even if the driver brakes outside the normal range of ABS.
The EBD system controls front-to-rear brake distribution, shifting braking force to the rear when the vehicle is loaded with people and/or luggage.
Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) not only optimizes driving stability when starting or accelerating, it also improves traction. In addition, the system recognizes unstable driving conditions such as under - or oversteering and helps to maintain a safe course for the vehicle. Advanced sensory technology monitors the wheel rotation speed, lateral acceleration and the yaw rate (rotation around the vertical axis). This data is processed to obtain information about the automobile as it is currently moving, and is compared with data about how it should be currently moving, as supplied by the accelerator and the angle of the steering wheel. If these two lists of data do not match and the automobile's stability is threatened, DSC is activated and influences the brake system or the engine management. This action helps prevent dangerous situations such as skidding.
Dynamic traction control is a function of the DSC. DTC is used in situations where some wheel slip is needed, for example when driving in snowy conditions. This will allow the tires to slip enough to gain traction and momentum to get the vehicle moving on slick conditions. When DTC is active, DSC is still active but its control is modified to lessen interventions. DTC increases traction by locking up specific wheels to allow the ones with more traction to move the vehicle.
So explain to me again why you would not want to flash the ECU?
It's your MINI so don't cut corners on the important things, LIKE BRAKES!!!