(prior approval from Drew to make this post, mods let me know if it needs edits and i will gladly do so)

A lot of people are looks first, function second and that's totally cool. There are some pretty good products out there right now for the Mini and very solid vendors behind them.

BUT I think there is a lack in significantly improved options for those that track and autocross their cars (and still daily drive the car). There are some good parts out there but i think there is a lot still left on the table.

The Mini is essentially on the bumpstops at stock ride height, so when i see springs that lower the car 1.4 inches or whatever i just shake my head. There is only about 2 to 2.5 inches of bump travel, and that's NOT including the bumpstop. The bumpstop increases rate progressively until it spikes to infinity, causing understeer and poor ride quality.

There also aspects to lowering the car that negatively affect handling due to changes in roll center height. Yes, you get a lower center of gravity but this advantage is vastly outweighed by the negatives.

The only reason to lower the car that much is looks, plain and simple.

This car has SO much potential, but in my opinion a lot of these springs do more harm than good. Proper spring rates, geometry, and suspension travel are key points for springs.

My personal "dream" spring would be:

Minimal drop, as in 5 to 10 mm front and rear. Probably an even drop. Rates around 250 to 280 lbs/in (280 lbs/in = 5 kg/mm) and probably a bit stiffer in the rear. This should work with stock dampers but be matched very well to Konis or Bilsteins.

Not a "looks" spring but a handling spring. With good dampers this would be coilover level performance with good ride quality.

Am I the only one out there that's looking for something like this?

- Andrew

 

That sounds more or less like tsw springs.

 

TSW springs lower the car 20-25mm, and have a lower spring rate, so no, not really....

Andrew, I think it's a very good idea, and I would recommend it to my brother who has a JCW too. At which point does the negatives of lowering outweigh the positives though, as I have coilovers?

 

Exactly, I'm thinking less of a drop and firmer rates.

Coilovers have an advantage in that they usually use a shorter shock body, so they lower the car and still have respectable travel. They're designed from the start for a lower ride height and do so partially through that shorter shock body and not just a shorter spring. Some coilovers still don't have much travel though.

They also usually use firmer springs, so they don't necessarily need as much travel too.

The geometry side of things can get fairly tricky and I haven't jumped into that for the Mini yet. One often used quick rule of thumb is that you should not lower the car to the point where the control arms are parallel to the ground.

- Andrew

 

The TSW springs lowered my car about .5" in front and maybe .75 in back. and they sure feel firmer than stock...

 

They advertise a 1 inch drop front and .75 rear. I'm sure they're great springs and they have decent rates, I just think they'd be much better with a milder drop. I bet they'd agree with me too.

There's a company that makes a spring for the Subaru STI that lowers the car....wait for it....5mm. And they include shortened bumpstops front and rear so you end up with MORE bump travel than stock. Much firmer rates, amazing handling and ride quality. And that car is not as suspension travel challenged as the Mini. Why does every spring lower the car so much for the Mini? This is a handling oriented car.

- Andrew

 

I guess the JCW springs would fit the bill in terms of minimal lowering (about 1/2 inch) but I'm not sure how
the spring rates compare to stock.

 

Unfortunately, no one knows the spring rates of the JCW springs and I wouldn't put springs on the car without knowing the rate. I suspect they're a bit too soft but I have no idea.

- Andrew

 

I suspect you're right.
Unfortunately, most spring rates are unknown.
Some are listed on this thread - please add to it if you can.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ring-info.html

 

My car most definitely handled best when it was stock. Since then my steps were-
mach v lowering springs, lower center of gravity, less body roll, much harsher ride, but not as solid as stock is anymore with turn in.
then came the 19mm rsb, and it helped with turn in as there was more grip in the front tires
then came the bilsteins, and handling has improved, but i wouldn't even say better than stock

I've driven scottAB's car, when it had stock springs/stock shocks, then stock springs and bilsteins, and then jcw springs and bilsteins.
The jcw and bilsteins are a very good match imo. His car never rode harsh in any of the states i drove it in. I don't like the wheel gap (as im in the group who lowers more for appearance than improved handling), but i can definitely say it handles better than my car. I can also say it feels better on turn in than stock did.
It should be mentioned that when purchasing JCW springs, there are a few different spring rates (as also true with the s springs) that go hand in hand with the options on your car. Thus, when scott purchased the springs, he checked off all the car options, such as sunroof, automatic, etc etc (all that adds weight), so that he would get the stiffest version of the JCW spring in return.

Yes, theres no numbers, but this hopefully will give you an idea on the JCW spring over s springs.

 

Thanks for the honesty Boston. To many of us defend our mods because we don't want to admit we made our cars worse.

 

Excellent feedback! Thank you.

- Andrew

 

Regarding the stock MC, MCS, and JCW springs, and their different versions for differently equipped cars,
I think the goal of having a few different springs for each model is to maintain the same ride height for cars
with heavier or lighter optional equipment (sunroofs, superchargers, etc.).
There's probably more of a difference in spring lengths than a difference in spring rates (#/in) in this case.
I've heard that the MCS (ss+) spring rates are supposed to be about 10% higher than the MC (ss) ones,
but have never heard anything definite about the JCW rates.
It's a little frustrating that all these springs have been around for so many years, and the data is still so spotty.

 

I'd say you are not the only one looking for this kind of spring but if not just for looks than why bother lowering it at all?

I think that if you are looking for performance while tracking you car only getting springs will be sort of half-assing your suspension in a way instead of getting higher quality coilovers.

If you want springs just for a daily driver then how hard are you really pushing your car on city roads? If not for looks alone then I think the JCW kit will give you enough performance in springs to handle almost anything you would do in a daily driver.

Personally I am willing to make a sacrifice on handling by getting rid of the most ugly thing the Mini Cooper comes stock with, ride height. Of course anyone can stick with the stock height in a tracking or DD situation but to me gaining a little better handling and only removing a 5-10mm part of the wheel gap is not worth it. With current springs you get a LOT better look with only a slight decrease in handling (from what I have read, mine are still on their way ).

 

Problem is, a lot of people don't get high quality coilovers, the get VMAXX and Megan and stuff like that so they can lower the ride height, maintain travel, and get better handling for the minimum price. Why not get a stiff, linear spring, with increased travel, and an ever so slightly lower ride height instead of having to spend $1500+ on coilovers? There are some that don't want to spend that much on their suspension. This would be a great improvement over the stock suspension without having to change the shocks, and might I add, a hell of a lot cheaper.

Also, the JCW might lower a nice amount, but it's still not stiff enough.

 

Plus, Koni yellows or Bilsteins with a good spring like this would probably be much nicer at the track than Megans, and definitely be better than Vmaxx. And be pretty cheap. Less of a headache overall than most coilovers in terms of longevity and durability.

Not AST or JRZ coilover level performance, but certainly Megan level performance at a similar price with better ride quality and more fun on real world
crappy roads. No, you don't get the look, and if that's what you're after, that's fine.

EDIT: I'm not saying this type of thing would be better than well thought out and set-up coilovers, but lets face it...most coilovers under 2 grand are not well thought out or not set-up for handling well. These would get you a lot of the way there, be easy to set-up, and be durable.

- andrew

 

As a manufacturer of springs, and a retailer, let me comment about andyroo's request for stiffer springs with minimal lowering. First off, keep in mind that like with any manufactured item, you have to make a LOT of them to make them affordable. You can't make five sets of springs and have them be $300 a set. You need to make a hundred sets, or better yet five hundred sets. Second, I don't see much demand for this product. Sure, I can see the reasoning, but as someone brought up above, there already is the JCW offering. I have had very few people ask me for non-lowering springs that are stiffer. Many or most just want to lower the car, and their motivation is usually about 50-50 looks/handling. They hate the wheel gap, and they like the handling benefits of the lowered car.

Now, let's address the handling. If you give me two MINI models, identical except for one has lowering springs (any brand) and one does not, the lowered car WILL go around corners faster and will have faster times around just about any road course or autocross. Yeah, I know, control arm angles, bump stops, limited travel, etc., but the lowered car is faster.

Actually, there's an article in this month's (December 2010) Grassroots Motorsports, page 88. They took a Golf and lowered it 2.5 inches, so much that the lower control arms weren't just level, they were tilted UP. You'd think the thing would be terrible around the track, but it was half a second faster per lap.

Of course, then they go on to talk about that it was terrible on the street, and that's where we come back to the compromises with lowering the MINI, which has very little suspension travel from the get-go. The handling may be better with lowering springs, but the ride comfort will be worse. I have yet to find ANY suspension solution that does a better balancing act of handling vs. ride comfort than the factory suspension. All the aftermarket springs or coilovers I have tried are better handling, but worse comfort to some degree.

But if you didn't lower it and just firmed up the spring rate, I don't think you are going to help things that much. The car will lean less in corners, but the ride will also get a lot more jiggly. A 280 pound/inch spring on a 2500 pound car is pretty stiff. The car won't soak up bumps as well as it does with the stock springs, and I think you'll see a significant increase in front-rear "bobble" when you go over things like expansion joints.

One way you could figure it out, though, would be to put some spring blocks in the stock springs. That effectively locks out one coil of the existing spring, increasing the rate proportionately while not shortening the spring. Maybe someone could try it out and share the results?

--Dan
Mach V

 

When I had my old Rabbit ('82) before the MINI, I had 1 1/2 inch lowering
springs, and was unhappy with the reduced shock travel and changed geometry.
I used some spring blocks to raise the height back up most of the way back to
stock ride height and it also increased the spring rate.
It looked a little mickey mouse when you peered at the springs, but it worked well in the end.
Before that I had (on the Rabbit again) stock springs with a coil cut out and blocks to put it
back up and increase the rate - not recommended but it worked.

It would be nice if someone made a product that lowered minimally and increased spring rate.
Some companies do this for other cars - Shine Products for VW, Neuspeed SoftSports or
H&R OE for many applications but not for MINI yet.

 

My point though is that most or all of the lowering springs already out there would have better handling and ride quality if they had the same rates they do now, but were at least 10 mm higher.

Having driven STIs and EVOs on tein s-techs at an auto-x, they were much slower than stock. Some aftermarket springs are just really, really awful. For the Mini I don't have experience with all the springs out there, but BostonR56Ss' feedback is what I'm talking about.

I think that some of the crappy ride quality of the Mini is the small amount of travel combined with soft springs (and perhaps the poor high speed damping). Firmer springs at the same ride height will use up less travel, keeping the car from going so deep into the bumpstops. It would probably be better in some areas and worse in others, but overall I think it would be better with a well chosen rate. The stock springs are soft, but almost immediately you're into the firmer bumpstops which can have quite a bit of rate.

You're right, 280 lbs/in may be a bit too firm. I'd like to try something in that neigborhood though. It's funny to see a lot of people running 8k (450ish lbs/in) coilover springs on these cars with 205 width all season street tires....

As for the business side of things....that's probably the toughest part as you said. :(

- Andrew

 

Keep an eye out in the marketplace. I've seen the JCW springs pop up there once in a while. For me, since I swapped to lowering springs, I have my stock S springs lying around. Don't want to sell them incase i need to go back to stock. But you may be able to find someone with JCW springs that lowered and are just keeping their jcw springs in storage. Maybe they'll let you try them out so you don't have to buy them from the factory.
It sounds like the JCW spring would do for you what you're looking for, at least compared to anything else out there.

 

Handling vs ride comfort -- Stock S Springs paird with bilstein HDs.
The Bilstein valving/damping ratio is paried extremely well (better than stock) with the stock S springs. This, of course, is my opinion.
Maybe you were saying handling in terms of lowering and ride comfort.

While in general a lower car may be faster due to lower center of gravity and less roll will help a car around a corner, having one paired with the wrong struts/travel lengths can be negatively impacted. If you want to play around with this without spending money (maybe not the best example), but play gran turismo on the playstation... Yes, its a video game, but slamming the car to the lowest ride height will definitely not provide you with the best handling abilities. The game is pretty realistic in terms of car settings/adjustments. It may seem elementary, but if its one thing I learned in mech engineering school in vibrations/linear systems is that a spring-damper system behaves as that, a system. The system must be balanced in order for proper dampening of the oscillations provided by the spring coefficient. In lamens terms, a car that goes around a corner (unless its made of glass), will hit bumps and imperfections- and a lower center of gravity will help you carry more speed through the turn, but if the shock absorbers dont dapen out the oscillations of the spring hitting the bumps properly, you'll get all sorts of reactions that cause the tire to not grip, small hops etc, centrifugal force at its best. Ok i'll stop the scientific talk. I just don't agree that a lower car automatically means a faster car around the corners.

I have your springs Dan. And while I am very happy with how they made my car look, I can't say they handled "better" than stock. Is there less body roll and less torque steer due to the lower center of gravity? Absolutely. But does the car stick better around corners? Not necessarily. With stock shocks, the damping was not proper to hold the tires on the ground around a bumpy turn (say auto-x), and would cause the car to hop towards the outside of the corner. They weren't blown at this point, as the car had less than 15K miles on it. Visually and physical/compression inspection said they were okay when i installed the springs. Since most people use a lowering spring for a street setup, its something they would encounter on the majority of less-than perfect roads. Now, was it worth the compromise for me? Absolutely. I couldn't stand how the car looked at stock height. The drop of 1.25" was perfect, and that was on my 205-40-18's. With my 215-45-17's, it was a perfect stance for me. I enjoyed the lower center of gravity and reduced torque steer and the appearance of the car (relatively important to me), and would compromise for a little less than stock handling (which is still way better than most other cars in the class). Now with the bilstein HD's in my car, the damping is much better on rebound and gets the car settled back down after a bump, which comes in extremely handy around corners. It sticks much better. The only downside, which I thought I was 100% sure wouldn't happen and didnt believe others when they said was happening to them, is the fact that I got about .2" raised ride height all around with the new struts/shocks. This i've concluded is due to the higher gas pressure in these struts compared to stock, which is keeping the car from allowing to be held up solely by the springs. The bilstein sports may have changed this with the piston travel specifications.

 

It would be nice to have more drop, but with more drop we would loose shock travel. When TSW designed them they didn't want to loose the travel.

As everyone knows I now own the TSW company so I'm bias, but these springs are the best option in my opinion to give you a little drop, improve handling with their linear rate, and still maintain ride quality. And these springs are one of their products that is so good it made buying the company worth it.

Ask anyone with the TSW springs and lets see what they think of them.

 

I do think the TSW springs sound like one of the best offerings out there.

- Andrew

 

If I were to buy springs, the TSWs would be the only ones. With bumpstops cut in half.

 

Tein H Springs lower about 1/2 inch and have rates of 207 front 229 rear.
A little softer than you were looking for, but about the right drop.