Hi.
I am Looking to lower my very first new mini. After reading many threads, I have set my mind to go with NM springs on stock suspension set until I will get my hands on(or until stock suspension gives up) Koni yellow.
My mini will be mostly for street use, however I am looking into try some tracks as the time goes by.
So my question is what would be the best rear sway bar for my setup?

Thank you.

 

The NM springs are great and an excellent choice.

As for swaybars for a street car just get the Hsport 19mm rear bar. Hsport makes the best bars. They have 3 adjustment holes, are all one piece so no welds to crack or break. Special bushings that hold the grease, and zerk fittings on the bushing mounts if you ever do need to regrease. And the black powdercoat looks stock and will stand up better than most other sway bar manufactures.

 

i would say NM's 22mm, but i'd agree with Way on this one, 19mm is all you need for street, and i found a lot that the sway bar is more of a tweeking piece rather than an end all be all suspension fix. i say just try out your new springs first, see if they fix or reduce your understeer and dive into corners, if they don't do it enough for you, then add a swaybar. but thats' just my $0.02. BUT, on the other hand, its' proven that rear bar and springs will make a big difference in your cars handling.

 

thank you so much for your answers.

So I guess it will be between H-Sport 19mm or NM 22mm.
And I do see that H-Sport is much lighter than NM 22mm.
Besides the weight of those bars, what would say the main difference between those two?

And since I will take my mini to one of the body shop to do the install, I am pondering whether it would be wise to install adjustable control arms with the springs to reduce cost of labor for installation.

do you guys think adjustable control arm is more necessary than rear sway bar?

 

i have TSW Control arms on my car with -1.5 degrees of negative camber in the back, but i don't think you'll need control arms personally, i got mine to keep my setup as adjustable as possible because i go to a couple different tracks and different amounts of rear camber, different swaybar settings, and dampening adjustment gives different characteristics for different tracks, tighter tracks i stiffen everything up and run -1.9 degrees of camber, daily driving i'm in the middle at -1.5 and for faster high speed tracks i run about -0.5 degrees of negative camber....

whatever Waylen says will be more appropriate for you, like i said i only have them cuz i track my car, but if you REEEAALLLY want them, it's your money, but keep in mind you'll be paying for install, and then for alignment, and with the lowering springs you'll get some negative camber just from the lowering... probably about -0.5 or so, and that can be increased to -0.8 if you adjust the slots in the front strut towers, so honestly i still say nix swaybar and rear control arms for now, try just the springs, you might be very happy with just those with the lowered look and better handling, they might be all you need. and could save you money, i never got anything for myself unless i saw a problem or a characteristic i didn't like and i made the necessary mods to fix that. i have a 19mm swaybar for instance because my 18mm one wasn't tightening up rear action, so 19mm on second setting was just stiff enough for what i needed with my coilovers and i've been running that ever since.

 

Thank you for your wonderful explanation, dunphyj.
Yes I would like to save my money and I don't want to do anything unless it is necessary. I was just asking about control arms because I have heard that there will be uneven, excessive tire wear because of negative chamber(especially on your toes) and I read that I would need control arms to offset those negative chamber to prevent those tire wears.

Do you think tire wear is minimal from lowering that I can overlook those?
I will be continue to use my stock runflat until it gives up. After, I am think of getting 215/45/17 non runflat after. (because I heard that it looks better, and it ride quality gets better).

 

For the sway bars, the NM bar is a very nice piece. The downside it that is a bit more expensive, a little harder to install with the mounting brackets the screws are hard to get tight, and it's weight. That's why I recommend the Hsports over the NM bar. If you are set on the 22mm stiffness, get the Hsport comp bar its the same rate as the 22mm, just cheaper, lighter, and easier to install so it's a better buy.

As for springs I really do recommend getting adjustable control arms. That way you can make sure the toe and camber in the rear is correct, they are cheaper than buying a new set of tires. Plus your alignment guy will do a much better job cause it will be easier for him. Plus let the car settle before aligning it.

 

Do you recommend getting it for rear only? or front and rear?
Which brand do you recommend for adjustable control arms?

Thank you.

 

the front doesn't have a control arm like the rear, the rear has two pieces that come out from the center (control arms) and a trailing arm that's front to rear, the ones you'd get to control the amount of camber are what you're looking for (which are the ones that are adjustable...) i know H-Sport has some nice ones, you can buy them in upper and lower sets or just lower, getting both will let you adjust the track of the rear a little bit, but if you're only worried about camber you don't need anymore than the lower ones. i'm pretty sure Way has them, there are quite a few to choose from. H-Sport, TSW, Ireland Engineering, Helix, Alta. if you want to spend ridiculous money go for NMs Titanium control arms :P hahaha

but no if you want to control the front camber you need camber plates, Ireland Engineering makes a decent set, then there's Vorshlag which is more upscale and more espensive (they're also what i'm running with my coilvoers... my my knowledge they're the only ones unless you go coilovers which obviously isn't your intention.

something else to consider, not to undermine anything Way's said, but there's also TSW springs to consider, they won't lower the car like NM springs, but they're higher spring rates. another thing to consider is the front to rear spring bias ratio... for instance stock spring ratio is 0.708, meaning it's rear bias. Eibachs are 0.715 (spring rates 171/239 at highest rates F/R with progressive rates), TSWs are 0.854 (225/269), NMs are 0.854 (205/240). Basically if the ratio is higher than 1 it's front bias and less than 1 is rear bias, it's said to change how the car acts at the limit, making the car closer to neutral. While my personal taste is guided more towards NM and Koni Yellows, i've heard of TSW with an otherwise JCW suspension setup being a very very good alternative, TSW springs being higher rate, Keeping the car around a 3/4 to 1in drop rather than an 1.2-1.5 inch drop, JCW dampers being nice as well (though not adjustable like Koni Yellows) and the Front and Rear swaybar upgrades that come with the JCW kit work wonders too. honestly if i could do it all again, i'd probably go for NM springs, Koni yellows, Hsport 19mm rear bar, NM endlinks and that'd be that. but anyway back on track, for my track purposes i have my car set to a 1.29 bias (450lb-in/350). Cross coilovers have a similar bias as well (something like 400/300 on the spring rates)

btw, as a side note, i'm running -1.5 negative camber front and rear for over a year now, haven't had any strange tire wear at all, so your lowering springs camber won't make any issues for you ... how as for the toe, and alignment will help that. i have certain settings for my car, but as always, my settings aren't for most people, i'm set for aggressive turn in response, and not quite as much high speed stability. but that's all for another thread.

 

dyunphyj,
wow! Thank you SO MUCH for taking your time to answer my questions. ^^. I am very thankful for your knowledge and suggestions. I am learning so much from you. ^^b.

I have couple more questions as you explained. It may sound very stupid..
1. When you mentioned "adjustable control arms" (upper and lower), NM endlinks, what is the difference? are you taking about the same thing? or is it different? (it really confuses me when I go to WMW site and look under suspension, it lists all these different names such as "rear camber links', "rear control arms", "adjustable rear camber links", "adjustable sway bar endlinks", etc. are they all talking about same thing there? or are those totally different? =P

2. i know this is little off the topic but... would you recommend 215/45/17 tires with NM/Koni Setup? if i install 215/45/17 instead of 205/45/17 OEM, would tires rub and limit the turns?

^^

 

Not a problem! Endlinks are what connect your swaybar to the trailing arms and therefore making the two sides of the suspension effectively connected (reducing sway in corners... Aka antisway bar..) but when you lower the suspension with the stock length endlinks you push the swaybar into a different position, effectively putting load on the bar. Adjustable endlinks will let you put the swaybar back to a neutral position (fronts are always longer on a lowered car and rears are shorter) NM adjustable endlinks are shorter and longer already to make it perfect for the lowering of their springs... But most adjustable links will go the necessary lengths with adjustment...

Control arms( if you look under the car, there are two of, an upper and lower, which also connect to the trailing arm to control suspension movement, but unlike a swaybar which connects the two sides together, the two control arms per side work on one side only, getting an adjustable lower control arm let's you "push out or pull in" the lower end of the wheel/tire effectively giving or reducing the amount of camber you have on stock or lowering springs.

2. You should be able to run 215s on the Joni/nmsetup without rubbing... However, if it's with stock wheels with a 48 offset, on hard left turns u MIGHT rub a little in the front passenger side, but I only did it for a week, the tire wore away the little fenderliner it was touching. But under all normal and spirited driving otherwise I wouldn't imagine you having any trouble. If u go with a wheel with 45 offset you won't have anyproblems at all.

Hope that all helps... I'll come back and attach a picture so u can have a visual of what I'm talking about.

EDIT:

Here you can see the control arms and trailing arms, the black and silver being the lower control arm, the pure black being the upper, and the all silver trailing arm from the front to the back

this shows the Swaybar and endlinks (both in red) a little clearer than the previous picture, as well as the lower control arm again.

 

wow... never knew suspension gets this complicated with many components.
so when they say "adjustable rear camber links", "adjustable sway bar endlink", or just simply "endlinks", they are talking about samething, correct?
ummmm...

1.if I get NM springs and hsport sway bar, do i need both of "endlinks" and "rear adjustable control arms"?

2. what do you mean by "stock wheels with a 48 offset"? I got 17" black web spoke wheels from mini. does this count toward "stock wheels with a 48 offset"?

3. is it your car in the picture?

you are my hero!

 

Adjustable rear camber links aren't really a MINI thing, that's more of a 350Z and honda thing, adjustable camber links are usually a modified wishbone piece (which our cars don't run), but when anyone talks about camber on our cars, it's usually a front Camber plate or an adjustable rear control arm.

1. if you want to have the MOST possible control over your car and how it's setup, then yes getting a full suspension upgrade will be best (control arm, swaybar, springs, and swaybar endlinks) BUT chances are that you'll have enough control with stock levels of adjustment to keep your car safely within street measurements (that includes toe in or out, as well as camber adjustment)

2. Yes your webspokes are a 17x7 48mm offset wheel.

3) yes that's my car in the picture. In that particular picture (the lower one and more recent one) i have my custom coilovers Koni yellow based with sleeves and TCKlein valving and H&R linear springs custom wound to 450/350 spring rates. TSW control arms, Alta 19mm rear sway and their adjustable endlinks as well.

 

I admire your knowledge and the generosity of sharing.

Do you have upper and lower adjustable control arms on your mini?

----
As you suggested, I think I will start out with NM Springs and maybe get H-sport adjustable arms(Lower only) for now.
[well.. that should be sufficient even if I track my mini in the future, correct?]

And get NM endlinks when I get H-Sport 19mm rear sway bar later.

And get koni yellow when stock shock gives up. ^^

does this sound like good plan to you?

Thank you so much once again.
And I am sure there are so many who added you as friend on this NAM website. but you can also count on me as one of them since I became your fan!

 

Just Lower control arms on mine, the upper is stock.

as for the rest of your plan, i approve i still say that you'd be amazed what shocks and springs can do to a car, the rest is just fine tuning stuff. Hope you enjoy your setup!!!!

 

thank you, dunphyj.
Have happy New year!

 

My pleasure! Happy new year to you as well

 

Their is also the 20mm, I believe made by Whiteline, which may be the sweet spot for a lot of people. I run the Tarrett bar which is expensive but fully adjustable. In the long run it has saved me money because as my suspension evolves I do not have to change bars. It is also nice to have the adjustability to fine tune just as you like it.
Steve

 

ummm.. how is whiteline 20mm compare to Hsports 19mm?

 

The Whiteline doen't have nearly as nice bushing and brackets, go for the hsport you won't be sorry.

Also you really should consider installing it with the springs, because you'll have both rear springs out install will be much easier. You don't need the endlinks, unless your going racing.

 

Hsport.

Nuff said.