Suspension To sway or not to sway
#1
To sway or not to sway
I know MANY questions have been asked about sway bars, but searching threads, most of them are about what brands to use, set up, what they're for, best springs to use in concert, what other mods are generally suggested, etc. However, I can't find any threads that really address my questions, so here goes:
Quick backstory leading to the question. I have a 2009 "justa". No modifications or additions save CG locks (and a hula girl bobble on the dash), so stock through-and-through. Although I do use Cary mostly as a commuter considering use vs. Mileage, like everyone, I do love the twisties. As my skill level continues to improve in the MINI with experience (my next task is to enroll in Phil Wicks course), I am pushing him harder and harder to the point that the understeer and roll are showing themselves consistently. With the exception of Phil Wicks and perhaps an autocross or two when clubs hold them, I will never race competitively and don't plan to add a bunch of costly modifications as if I were posing to (if I wanted that, I would have purchased the appropriate S or JCW Cooper to begin with). I had really planned on just the following modifications: rear sway bar (from all the posts likely an Alta 3-way adjustable, sounds like the 19mm is the way to go from what folks are saying here), Cravenspeed strut tower defenders, and likely the JCW "Brembo style" brakes. So, given this:
1- can I stick with the factory shocks or must I upgrade those too?
2- is the addition of a strut tower brace a must as well if I add the rear sway bar?
3- if I make these modifications (just the 3 planned above), will I cause other problems/excess wear or stress on other factory components, and if so what other "mods will I then have to address?
Thanks in advance for the advice!
Quick backstory leading to the question. I have a 2009 "justa". No modifications or additions save CG locks (and a hula girl bobble on the dash), so stock through-and-through. Although I do use Cary mostly as a commuter considering use vs. Mileage, like everyone, I do love the twisties. As my skill level continues to improve in the MINI with experience (my next task is to enroll in Phil Wicks course), I am pushing him harder and harder to the point that the understeer and roll are showing themselves consistently. With the exception of Phil Wicks and perhaps an autocross or two when clubs hold them, I will never race competitively and don't plan to add a bunch of costly modifications as if I were posing to (if I wanted that, I would have purchased the appropriate S or JCW Cooper to begin with). I had really planned on just the following modifications: rear sway bar (from all the posts likely an Alta 3-way adjustable, sounds like the 19mm is the way to go from what folks are saying here), Cravenspeed strut tower defenders, and likely the JCW "Brembo style" brakes. So, given this:
1- can I stick with the factory shocks or must I upgrade those too?
2- is the addition of a strut tower brace a must as well if I add the rear sway bar?
3- if I make these modifications (just the 3 planned above), will I cause other problems/excess wear or stress on other factory components, and if so what other "mods will I then have to address?
Thanks in advance for the advice!
#3
J/k
1, you can, if you go with lower ride height springs they will eventually go bad as your taking the shock travel from 2/3rd's to about less than 1/3rd
2,the chassis is so stiff it will help but the improvement will be hindered by the control arm bushings and they will absorb most of the feedback from the brace.
3, They really shouldnt but as to what else you shoul do is set a "purpose" (street/track/autocross/ etc etc) as they all have different ways/styles of modding.
PS: if you see me in the dc metro area throw a wave or high beam
1, you can, if you go with lower ride height springs they will eventually go bad as your taking the shock travel from 2/3rd's to about less than 1/3rd
2,the chassis is so stiff it will help but the improvement will be hindered by the control arm bushings and they will absorb most of the feedback from the brace.
3, They really shouldnt but as to what else you shoul do is set a "purpose" (street/track/autocross/ etc etc) as they all have different ways/styles of modding.
PS: if you see me in the dc metro area throw a wave or high beam
#4
I would pick up a H-Sport rear sway bar and some new springs with a 1-1.2in drop. Also a set of good sticky summer tires and light weight rims. You will see a dramatic increase in your cars handling. A strut tower brace isn't going to do much so I would pass on that. Same with the tower defenders. The R56 doesn't seem to have the same "mushrooming" issue as the older generations. The only problem you might run into is shortening the life of your OEM shocks/struts if you lower with springs.
#5
I installed an H&R rear sway bar on my 08 mcs. This was advertised as a 19 mm bar, but it actually measured at 18 mm, still an upgrade over the stock bar. I noticed a nice difference when 'hustling' through on ramps, and I installed it on the stiff setting. Well worth the $140.
I agree with the comments about the strut tower defenders, this seems like a more serious problem on the R53 than the R56. Some people really like the strut bar, but I don't know if there is a signifcant improvement for street driving, since the towers are pretty close to the firewall.
Don't forget a wheel and tire upgrade, even for street driving. I had an 09 justa, and the difference between a 16" set of runflats compared to the 15" normal tires was huge. Much crisper turn in and steering response. Don't forget that if you do the brake caliper upgrade you may be required to change wheels anyway.
There are also people that suggest the NM lower engine mount, but I have not done this. Supposed to help with torque steer and also quick shifting.
Enjoy the car.
I agree with the comments about the strut tower defenders, this seems like a more serious problem on the R53 than the R56. Some people really like the strut bar, but I don't know if there is a signifcant improvement for street driving, since the towers are pretty close to the firewall.
Don't forget a wheel and tire upgrade, even for street driving. I had an 09 justa, and the difference between a 16" set of runflats compared to the 15" normal tires was huge. Much crisper turn in and steering response. Don't forget that if you do the brake caliper upgrade you may be required to change wheels anyway.
There are also people that suggest the NM lower engine mount, but I have not done this. Supposed to help with torque steer and also quick shifting.
Enjoy the car.
#6
Don't forget a wheel and tire upgrade, even for street driving. I had an 09 justa, and the difference between a 16" set of runflats compared to the 15" normal tires was huge. Much crisper turn in and steering response. Don't forget that if you do the brake caliper upgrade you may be required to change wheels anyway.
That's great news about strut braces and tower defenders - if there's no real benefit adding them, I'd rather not waste the money. Given my rims, am I to understand the upgraded calipers won't be compatible? It sounds like then for now the best (mechanical) improvement to cornering i should focus on is the sway bar and upgraded calipers (for later braking)? Thanks!
#7
thanks for the info! My focus is mostly for the street; I won't do enough autoX (as i say, maybe a few for club events) to ever justify the modifications for it. My focus is maximizing my cornering/handling capabilities on the street for "spirited" motoring. I wave or flash at all MINIs I see - if I see you, guaranteed you'll get one or the other from me!
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#8
I know MANY questions have been asked about sway bars, but searching threads, most of them are about what brands to use, set up, what they're for, best springs to use in concert, what other mods are generally suggested, etc. However, I can't find any threads that really address my questions, so here goes:
1- can I stick with the factory shocks or must I upgrade those too?
2- is the addition of a strut tower brace a must as well if I add the rear sway bar?
3- if I make these modifications (just the 3 planned above), will I cause other problems/excess wear or stress on other factory components, and if so what other "mods will I then have to address?
Thanks in advance for the advice!
1- can I stick with the factory shocks or must I upgrade those too?
2- is the addition of a strut tower brace a must as well if I add the rear sway bar?
3- if I make these modifications (just the 3 planned above), will I cause other problems/excess wear or stress on other factory components, and if so what other "mods will I then have to address?
Thanks in advance for the advice!
1. - No problem sticking with stock struts. I recommend steering clear of lowering springs. I had them on my MCS for a year and then switched over to KW V2 coilovers with my growing interest in track days. The ride quality on lowering springs is very jarring even if you're dropping only a little over an inch. The way I see it, you might as well do it right the first time you want to upgrade the struts/springs... go for coilovers! However, if you're a street fiend and value a little comfort, stay away from lowering with springs.
2. - Not really. The stiffness gained up front is barely noticeable compared with how the MINI will handle with a larger rear sway bar. I would just go right for the H-sport hollow 25mm swaybar. You don't have to get extreme with the stiffness, but at least it gives you a nice adjustable range and it's light weight.
3. - As others have said, you should make sure you're riding on good sticky tires. It is after all the limiting factor The other cheap & easy mods to do are installing an NM-engineering lower engine torque arm insert. This will reduce a lot of the engine's movement during hard shifts/accels. Lastly, would be to push your front struts inward but removing the locater pin to give you a tiny bit more front camber. It also seems like you're curious about brakes. With where you're at I would only invest in some new brake pads. Only when you're giving your car holy hell on the track would I say upgrade to a big brake kit.
#9
Sway Bars
I added Megan Racing coil overs, adjustable rear sway bar, adjustable rear control arms, a TSW X-brace, and tower defenders. I lowered 1". Also went to 18" x 7.5" 215/35R Venesia tires. The ride is a bit harder, but the cornering makes it all worthwhile. Amazing the difference I feel. I want to thank Aaron at Outmotoring for all his help with my mods.
Ted
Ted
#11
I'll add my 2 cents from my super duper two years with my MCS...
2. - Not really. The stiffness gained up front is barely noticeable compared with how the MINI will handle with a larger rear sway bar. I would just go right for the H-sport hollow 25mm swaybar. You don't have to get extreme with the stiffness, but at least it gives you a nice adjustable range and it's light weight.
2. - Not really. The stiffness gained up front is barely noticeable compared with how the MINI will handle with a larger rear sway bar. I would just go right for the H-sport hollow 25mm swaybar. You don't have to get extreme with the stiffness, but at least it gives you a nice adjustable range and it's light weight.
#12
I actually found the NM springs gave me a more comfortable ride around town. It's the stock shocks/struts that make for an uncomfortable ride. Although if your gonna do shocks/struts and springs your only a couple bucks away from a full coilover set up. And I wouldn't worry about the end links. Save the money and get lower control arms. And the NM torque arm insert is a great "bang for the buck" upgrade.
#13
out of curiosity, by adding a stronger/stiffer sway bar, shouldn't the corresponding end links be upgraded as well? Seems like by upgrading the sway bar will make the factory end links the weakest point. Would there be a concern for factory end link failure or just inability to handle the stiffer sway bar? Or, are the factory end links fine even with an upgraded SB?
The factory end-links will hold up. All of the marketing hype that they'll snap when you push the car is major B.S. I had three amazing track days with stock end-links and... gasp... they lived! You really only need to upgrade the front and rear swaybar endlinks when you want to corner balance the car. The other time you absolutely need the front swaybar endlinks is if you lower the ride height a lot with coilovers. The stock front swaybar endlinks are too long and will interfere with the front control arms in this case. So in summary, if you're not going with coilovers and aren't corner balancing, you don't need endlinks.
#14
Hey Cary,
If you ever get up near Westminster Md, You can stop by and drive my car with Koni's, TSW springs and HSport bar.
I found the biggest change was getting rid of the crappy stock shock. The ride is much nicer now. The bar is a tuning aid, not a cure.
In getting rid of unsersteer, you probably need a bit more negative camber in front. If you go ahead and knock out the plastic alignment pin the the front strut mounts, then you can push the strut in and gain about 1/2 degree of camber. For free, no muss no fuss, no alignment needed...
Anyway, the offer is open...
If you ever get up near Westminster Md, You can stop by and drive my car with Koni's, TSW springs and HSport bar.
I found the biggest change was getting rid of the crappy stock shock. The ride is much nicer now. The bar is a tuning aid, not a cure.
In getting rid of unsersteer, you probably need a bit more negative camber in front. If you go ahead and knock out the plastic alignment pin the the front strut mounts, then you can push the strut in and gain about 1/2 degree of camber. For free, no muss no fuss, no alignment needed...
Anyway, the offer is open...
Last edited by richardsperry; 11-23-2011 at 11:40 AM.
#15
Hey Cary,
If you ever get up near Westminster Md, You can stop by and drive my car with Koni's, TSW springs and HSport bar.
I found the biggest change was getting rid of the crappy stock shock. The ride is much nicer now. The bar is a tuning aid, not a cure.
In getting rid of unsersteer, you probably need a bit more negative camber in front. If you go ahead and knock out the plastic alignment pin the the front strut mounts, then you can push the strut in and gain about 1/2 degree of camber. For free, no muss no fuss, no alignment needed...
Anyway, the offer is open...
If you ever get up near Westminster Md, You can stop by and drive my car with Koni's, TSW springs and HSport bar.
I found the biggest change was getting rid of the crappy stock shock. The ride is much nicer now. The bar is a tuning aid, not a cure.
In getting rid of unsersteer, you probably need a bit more negative camber in front. If you go ahead and knock out the plastic alignment pin the the front strut mounts, then you can push the strut in and gain about 1/2 degree of camber. For free, no muss no fuss, no alignment needed...
Anyway, the offer is open...
Do the free camber mod as described above or get some fixed camber plates. It's worth checking the toe after the free camber mod IMO.
- Andrew
#16
The rear sway bar is the best bang for the buck suspension mod you can do.
The stock end links are NOT weak, that is a scare tactic other companies use to scare you into buying expensive aftermarket end links. You only need adjustable end links if you are corner weighting the car, or to adjust the bar to zero preload. Installed hundreds of rear sway bars including my street car and not had one break yet. I've seen like 2 broken end links in the last 9yrs FYI.
And for sway bars get the Hsport bar it is the best in quality and has grease fittings on the brackets.
The stock end links are NOT weak, that is a scare tactic other companies use to scare you into buying expensive aftermarket end links. You only need adjustable end links if you are corner weighting the car, or to adjust the bar to zero preload. Installed hundreds of rear sway bars including my street car and not had one break yet. I've seen like 2 broken end links in the last 9yrs FYI.
And for sway bars get the Hsport bar it is the best in quality and has grease fittings on the brackets.
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