OK, I need help with this one. I have been looking around and decided I want some opinions before I drop $200+ on a formed peice of aluminium. I am leaning towards the H-Sport because it seems to be the cheapest. I know the Sparco one is about $100 less, but they seem hard to find. Can anyone give me an opinion on the quality and strength of the H-Sport?

Thanks!

 

Any particular reason why you want a strut brace?
IMHO, it is a waste of money. The MINI is built strong enough so that it does not need one.

 

He's right, but if you just want that "look" carve one out of balsa wood so as not to add any unnecesary weight.

 

I am looking into the one from BFP thats made of Carbon Fiber. Its alot of bling and almost no wieght. Its $299 but worth it I think. STB

 

I'm sorry. Didn't realize it was a bling thread. Get the carbonfiber one

 

I'm sorry, maybe I took it that way. I am thinking of doing several CF additions to my car and thats one of them so I chimmed in. :smile:

 

Can they really not offer any stability? I was told your alignment can be messed up if you autox and dont have one. My car does pull to the right now after a few races. I want to tighten the car in general.

 

This is starting again i see LOL .We went thru all of this 2 years ago. Oh well for the hell of it I will say it again. They work if you drive hard enough I've tried 4 different bars , three worked and one did not. If you drive hard in the canyons or do track days there will be a noticable differance in the way your car carves, turns in and holds a line. I've made friendly bets with people that i can drive their car and tel if it has a WORKING strut tower or not and am three for three so far. You can beleive the hype that the mini has a strong body, which it does, but does that mean it can not be made stiffer? For you that beleive JCW is all go and no hype please explain why they now offer one for their track series cars ? Come on now its a quiet sunday night lets have some flaming fun. BTW i have no financial gain in this as for the time being we do not offer a strut tower brace in our product lineup.Andy buddy where are you, time for round two

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

First- Do you really need a tower strut brace for your MCS?
Simple answer is no for street use and for autocross.
On a long track at really high speeds with cornering at full tilt- you might be helped but it won't be measurable in lap times in autocross runs or at the track.

Why? Because the front end of the MINI is quite stiff and isn't in great need of added support. You can add the support but you will spend money and add weight. I have one for the looks and because I think that a little extra strength helps keep the front end a bit more reinforced resulting in a little less metal fatigue in the long run. It doesn't affect my autocross times.

Second- Do we know "anything objective" about the strength and quality of any tower strut brace? Simple answer is no but we have lots of subjective opinions about them (search for other treads- there are many). Some owners really like them and feel they are helpful. There are no tests to check for strength or quality. Generally they are $200-$300 so expensive for not much to gain for the average owner.

Can you still add them? Sure. But the strut bar will interfere with many of the intake boxes so you'll have to find a lower one like Benfer CF or BMP aluminum intakes or notch a Pilo or Maddness intake box. The bar will be in the way when you do an oil change.

Additionally some owners don't like the hinges in the BMP aluminum or steel strut bar which is built that way so you can preload the bar using an eliptical joint secured by a bolt/nut. The alternative is a solid bar. Maybe a metal engineer can comment on the relative strength of the design of solid vs preloaded for a strut bar.

To "tighten" the car you should optimize the suspension first. The stock chassis is quite rigid which is a plus. List all of your suspension upgrades and your alignment settings. Your alignment (like toe settings) might be off from left to right. It's not from not having a strut brace. It might be from uneven roads and potholes. Autocross is not that hard on a stock MINI.

Finally- the reason why many autocross cars have the strut brace is basically their front end isn't very stiff and needs help. The brace DOES help them in a big way so they think it will help the MINI. The MINI is already blessed so save your $$$ and put it into tires or suspension if you want to improve at autocross.

 

I'm confused about the "there are no numbers therefor the strut brace isn't proven to help" argument. What measurements of body stiffness do we have, stock? What is the proven threshold above which a strut tower brace makes no difference for autocross?

I'm not trying to start a flame war I'm just a little concerned about the religion of numbers that seems to be growing on this board as if it's real science.

"Where are your dyno numbers?". "Not that dyno, it's inaccurate". "My dyno numbers are SAE".

If every car was exactly the same off of the assembly line then 1 dyno, measure of stiffness, etc, would be proof. Since all of our Minis are a bit different every upgrade should be tested individually on enough cars to obtain statistical power. Otherwise, I think we should take all the "proof" we see with a grain of salt.

Whew, felt good to get that off of my chest. Sorry for the rant.

 

Here is a "number" for you. When I have a proper strut tower on my car the number of times I rub my inner fender liner on my front tire is FEW. When i do not have a front strut tower on my car the number of times I make contact on the same roads at the same speeds is MANY

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

Veni_Vidi_Vici,
We should always take all "Proof" with a grain of salt.

There is no "proven threshold".

The proof of the pudding is either in the improved handling or in the reduced run times for autocross or anything else (track). Find a track, do some laps under the same conditions with bar and without and see if you can feel the difference or if you run lower times. Randy Webb mentioned that with a strut brace installed, his track and autocross times were not affected in any way.

Measuring body flex is difficult to do in a meaningful way- you have to simulate load on the chassis as it applies to when the MINI is being driven hard. You cannot easily test the strut bars either in a meaningful way if your testing is done with the bars off the cars since they function when mounted in the car. You could to simple strength and flexibility testing- talk to a mechanical engineer.

On the other hand we know that over time metal fatigue happens with repeated stresses to the chassis. Witness the many squeaks and rattles that an older car has compared to new. Bicycle frames are also a good example, when new they are very stiff but over time after being used for racing they get very flexible and worn out. Could the strut bar help to delay the metal fatigue in the front end by adding a measure of stiffness? I hope so.

Maxmini,
Which tires/wheels/and suspension do you run when you get the rubbing and on what course do you do the testing- long track with high speed curves or canyon run? I'd like to try it out.

 

I've also been wondering: given that the average autocross course has more turns and come in more rapid succession than, say, Leguna Seca wouldn't stiffness be even more important on autocrocross courses than on the track?

 

Correct, autocross is very different from track. Autocross is relatively short usually less than a mile with many "elements" including lane changes, slaloms, turns, boxes, etc at regular intervals and on varying surfaces (asphalt, concrete, worn irregular surfaces) driven at speeds that are up to those seen on the highway (60 mph tops).

This means several things. If the course is setup correctly you never get the higher speeds seen on the track of 70+ in turns and 120 in straights. You get a different sort of stress on your suspension. To drive autocross well you need to maintain balance of the car as you drive and strive not to upset this or you WILL overstress your suspension/wheels and slow down or loose control.

The slower speeds and many turns in autocross work together. Having the strut bar will help those cars with a lack of a rigid chassis but for the MINI it is questionable. I would say if a test was done it would not result in a faster run time that was measurable. If you are highly skilled you might be able to do more but I have not experienced it for myself

I would say that for turns at higher speeds when cornering at the limit of your suspension is when you'd see the most stress. I have done 90 mph lane changes on the track and the MINI is quite solid and stable. No complaints.

I would say that $$$ for mods are better spent on tires and other suspension mods before spending on a strut brace in the case of autocross.

 

Maxmini,
Which tires/wheels/and suspension do you run when you get the rubbing and on what course do you do the testing- long track with high speed curves or canyon run? I'd like to try it out.

I had made these observations prior to tracking the car on a closed canyon road nearby( see enclosed pic ) which I use for testing. The wheels in question were Hamman 17/8 , 42 offset with 215/45 series tires.I initially had KW coil overs on the car but have since switched to Leda's.
The type of turn that would cause rubbing without a brace or even with the one that didn't work would be either a tight left or right hander with any type of bump or surface irregularity while carving the turn. It really didn't need to be fast but the G load had to be up there. I thought it would be a fact of life that I would rub at the height i was running the car at as it rubbed even with the first bar i tried. It was only after i tried the one from Forge motorsports that i realized I was not rubbing on those turns any more. The same thing was apparent when I tried the Diamond Racing bar as well as the BMP/Pro Mini.
As for tracks my local favorite is Willow Springs and Streets of Willow. Both tracks give the car a good workout at both ends of the spectrum. They don't call big willow " the fastest track in the west " for nothing LOL. The Streets course is exactly what you would think it is more tight with some severe curbing. I would not think to try the car there without the braces as even with them there is a little touch now and then. I hate to think how long the tires would last without them. Hope this helps explain why they work for me .

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

Experts,


Do you think a strut bar will help a Cabrio?

 

IF the cabrio is driven on the streets in a normal matter then not really.

If you have performance suspension upgrades and have lowered your car with coilovers and use wider than normal rims with wider than stock tires then you can make use of the extra strength a good bar could add if you know how to drive corners hard without loosing control.


Maxmini,
Thanks for the details.

 

Interesting stuff.


I talked to Randy Webb about this several months ago and he said he measured less than 1 mm of deflection on a hard track session and thought that $ was better spent in other areas.

I do think they look cool.

I thought I read that the rear of the Mini is the bigger problem

 

I guess I can live with a <1mm deflection while tearing around the track at full tilt.


The rear isn't as stiff. Several vendors are working on a remedy. Criss crossing supported bars/braces anchored significantly would be a place to start. I notice my back seat joints are rattling and creaking a bit after 2 years. Oh oh! Help cannot arrive too soon.

Now if I could only learn how to drive like Maxmini, I could really do some "testing".
More driving school I guess.

 

With the clearance I have left on this particular turn I dont think I could afford that milimeter I also have the rear strut tower brace from Pilo and have recently added the additional Convertable front suspension uprights. You can never be too stiff LOL

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

I would also think that the rear strut tower brace would help quell a little bit of the understeer on a stock Mini.

 

Just install the front and rear strut for 2 week, it is a bit help for understeer in sharp turn, and the steering is a bit sensitive compare to previous. Compare time it does not help, but I feel the rear strut is really working for the back movement, but the front...........................not so obvious. May be I will get it down from the front later.

 

My criteria for a front strut tower brace are:

1) Non-hinged design. There's a long-running quasi-religious argument about this that doesn't need to be rehashed, but my view is that if there's even the slightest chance that a non-hinged design is better, then it makes sense to choose that option, since there's zero downside to doing so.

2) Strut tower mounting plates that couple as closely as possible to the strut tower sheet metal. In practical terms this means 3-bolt mounting plus a well contoured plate. Not because I think it'll necessarily help the brace effectiveness, although it can't hurt, but to help reinforce the towers against the known problem of mushrooming at the top.

In addition the product shouldn't be too heavy or unrealistically expensive, and of course have decent quality construction and finish.

Point 1 above eliminates BMP and a couple of others. Point 2 rules out the whole family of CF, Al and Ti braces which use a 2-point mounting plate with standoffs.

The only braces I've found so far that qualify are Helix and Dinan, each a little under $250. I like the low profile and businesslike look of the Helix, but the Dinan appears to have a better mounting plate design.

As an added point of reference I can tell the difference a brace makes on my 96 M3 track car, but that's a decade older design than the Mini and consequently less rigid. The short and chunky front end of the Mini, plus more than a decade of progress in CAD, must surely pay off in terms of stiffness.

Also the M3 chassis initially suffered from strut tower sheet metal deformation, so in 96 BMW introduced stamped steel reinforcing plates that are sandwiched between the strut bearing plates and the towers. I'm surprised that something similar hasn't appeared for the Mini.

Or has it, and I just haven't stumbled on it?

Neil
05 MCS w/LSD
96 M3 w/big-*** UUC Strut Barbarian

 

Neil, I agree much with your rationale... Is this the Dinan bar? I can't quite make-out the lettering, but it appears to be...

 

Nope - here is the Dinan: