CORRECTION: Hard to OVERsteer!!

Was at a track doing an advanced driving course this passed weekend (Mini Mania 2 sponsored by Mini of Towson), and on the skidpad, I was unable to intentionally understeer my Mini. My instructor even commented on it along the lines of "Dang, this thing just won't OVERsteer, will it?".

I'm not suspension savvy, so I'm curious about items such as the rear sway bar which is supposed to stablize the rear, and I assume keep it from rear from swinging out by stiffening the frame back there...

I don't have any sway bars or suspension mods on my MCS, and I was running the stock 17" all-season run-flats... The vehicle either stuck to the track, or oversteered.

Not that OVERsteering is good, but the fact that I wasn't able to really get it to OVERsteer on the skidpad makes me wonder if I'm missing something suspension wise that would allow me to get 'more control' towards understeering. I feel if I can't OVERsteer, I must be missing turning ability, no?

 

Don't feel so bad. I know I was talking a lot of smack out there about you not being able to do it and then I showed you up in front of the girls, but the truth is, I couldn't get it to do it either. I cheated for the camera/women. I hit the hand brake each time I got it to slide out like that. It must be impossible in these car, I've tried several times in the snow. Maybe they're not long enough or have enough weight in the back.

PS, I'm the guy with the blonde your wife was hanging out with.

Sam

 

Wait. Are you sure you're not talking about oversteer? You wanted the back end to break loose, right? That's oversteer.

Yes, it is difficult with front wheel drive cars in a stock setup. Understeer is basically designed into it. Oversteer is generally perceived to be harder to control.

 

For the track, someone like Onasled needs to answer this as I am sure he knows more about this. However, in general, understeer is dialed into all passenger cars for safety. Try reading this http://www.johnnyoconnell.com/tips3.html

On the street, you really dont want to oversteer. Unless you feel you can really control that rear end coming out, it can be scary.

Why is your oversteering? Good question, it shouldnt be.

One thing is it could be the air pressures. That can make a difference

 

From my understanding a sway bar will increase the ability for you to take a corner at higher speeds BUT you will have much less indication that the rear is going to go out on you. The softer suspension sends you more warning that you are at the limits of adhesion.

The advice I have seen is to get PROFESSIONAL TRAINING before getting such a mod. It can be good, but you have to know how to drive with it or you will lose the rear end and end up in a wall.

 

The skidpad 'rocking horse' exercise just aint the MINI thang; on a track you will get throttle induced understeer. :smile:

 

Hehe, oops. You're right. Wanted to test the limits of the Mini to OVERsteer, but was unable to. Going counter-clockwise around the track, front kept skipping off to the right, when I wanted it to tuck in to the left, while accelerating.

And does the handbreak only then control the back breaks? I thought it was only like that for cars with drums in the back.

After the run on the skidpad, I don't know about that now. I pushed a decent amount, on a wet circular track, and the back wouldn't break loose.

 

Huh, that is understeer. If your going counterclockwise and the front wants to go right, that is ... go straight ... that understeer. If it tended to go left, eventually the rear end willl break loose, into a spin, thats oversteer.

 

Heck, I find it easy to oversteer in this bad boy. Much easier than in my old Golf at least.

When pushing hard, let off the gas a bit and you ought anotice the rear become unweighted slightly which should allow for some slippage until you hit the gas again to bring back the dreaded understeer..

Also, try some trail-braking or left-foot breaking (in a non-street controlled situation obviously) and you should be able to get some nasty spinning if you play around right. It's always good to know the limits, and to get there you sometimes have to surpass 'em first.

 

Stiffer swaybar will reduce understeer, bring you more neutral, then introduce oversteer if you go too stiff. Neutral is good, oversteer is dangerous (ever spin out into a wall?)

 

right. a stiffer rear sway bar is what you need.

 

"Dang, this thing just won't OVERsteer, will it?".

Got it. If the instructer said this, and your going right when driving counterclockwise, then car is doing exactly as expected ... understeering. Therefore, as others have said, its time for a stiffer rear bar. Lots of threads (hate to say that), lots of opinions on the best size.

Got confused with the title!

 

I had the same experience on the skidpad. Of course they (BMWCCA) set up an autocross course at the end of the day using part of the skidpad as a turn. Except we were coming into it much faster than we were just going around the skidpad. So, I come flying into the skidpad turn, thinking "my car never broke loose on this turn"... and, of course, when I let off the throttle a bit the rear end broke loose and I spun the car.

The next three times through that turn, I let the back end brake loose then hit the gas to "pull" the back end back in line.

It's hard to get the MINI to oversteer... but when it does it comes around really fast.

 

i read this thread and im like :impatient :impatient :impatient

the reason you didn't oversteer on the skidpad is because your
center of gravity (actually weight transfer) is on your rear tires
while you're on the throttle to maintain speed. i don't know why
your trainer did not explain that to you. he was trying throttle
lift (lift throttle) to get the rear to swing out by transferring
the weight to the front. it's hard to do on stock sus.

and the reason why you oversteered on the track is because
you didn't gradually change the weight transfer from the rear to
the front and then take your turn. you probably just slammed the
brakes before turn-in and cut your steering without any or very little
throttle. very typical for drivers who doesn't know how to heel & toe.
(or just not fluent with weight transfer). just practice and you'll
figure it out. :smile:

 

Hey kenchan,

for some reason, everytime I read your posts, I just wanna give you a hug .

This is what I think: since the length of the short wheelbase is pretty close to the width, you will need a lot of power and a very stiff suspension to get that a$$ in front of you. Mini is not a rear wheel drive, so it makes things harder. Like kenchan said, heel&toe is the best technique, needs a lot of practice,tho.

transfering weight properly is very very important, especially on a small, short and front-wheel drive car. That's why i don't understand the instructors. They go pretty quick, instead of taking it easy, they try to show you everything and overload you. every single technique needs practice for days, weeks, maybe months. You can not concentrate everything into 1-2 days and expect success.

Anyways, I careless about the oversteer anyways, it refers to trouble to me. Finally, testing the car's limits is cool, but please do not use the hand brake, keep in mind it ain't a WRC....

Good Luck.

 

Changed thread title. :smile:

 

patience...

The instructors did explain that. I understand that. Understanding something and experiencing something are two different things.

We tried lift throttle, we tried left foot braking, we tried e-brake... none caused oversteer. We finally tried lift throttle and e-brake which did the trick, but in a pretty uncontrollable fashion.

And, my suspension is not stock. (JCW upgrade with a bigger rear bar on full soft)

It wasn't on the track, it was on an autocross course in the parking lot. And I didn't touch the brakes, it was just lift throttle. The reason I spun was becuase the overall speed was higher (like I said).

Nope.

I do know how to heel & toe. I'm not great at it when threshold braking... my latest instructor eval rates that at a 3 (out of 5).

Unless your post wasn't aimed at me.

 

Was the skidpad completely wet of half dry-half wet?

Next time around I would suggest trying varying the size of the circle you are driving. Perhaps expand it a bit so you have more time, speed and room to manage the weight transfer.

Also the throttle and the brake pedals are not on off switches, feather off the throttle a little bit, add a little bit of steering input, feather a little bit of trail braking. You will eventually find the balance to make the tail end slide.

The parking brake induces artificial oversteer, you want to learn how and when the car will do it naturally.

Skidpads are not necessarily for going out and standing on the throttle and mashing the brakes hoping to spin out. The best lessons are learned with smothness and finesse. Take your time or all you will find is a big pile of understeer.

I would also suggest moving the rear bar to full stiff.

 

I told myself I was going to stay away from this thread... but I can't.

The problem I had on the skidpad is that I could not get enough speed to get the rear of the car to lose traction. Running a constant radius on the skidpad, I'd run into understeer before I could get going fast enough to get into oversteer when lifting the throttle.

To get it to work, I'd have to straighten out part of the turn so I could get more speed, then go back into the turn while lifting off the throttle. But that's not what the instructors wanted me to do - they were pretty firm on keeping a constant radius (more or less). This is, however, what happened when the autocross course was set up. And notice I said the first time it surprised me, the next three things worked out just fine.

Like the original poster said, the MINI is hard to get to oversteer (compared to RWD BMWs anyway, which is what the instructors I had were used to). And since there's not a whole lot of skidpad time at an ADSS, at least IMHO, you don't get to try lots of things to see what works.

Now that I'm more comfortable doing these things, I think I could get ggood results on the figure-8 / dual skidpad excercise. And yes, stiffening the rear swaybar would help in this excercise. But, on the track, I'm comfortable with my car set up the way it is (soft-ish rear swaybar). Since the skidpad work, I have gotten some minor oversteer on the track due to elevation changes... I don't think I want the car to be much looser on the track right now.

Oh yeah, it was raining during my ADSS, so everything was wet.

 

man with my setup i hade one of the most oversteer happy minis ive ever seen just turning in the wheel made my rear whip out, i remember i could literally drift my mini on michigan left turns it was crazy, this issue has been remedied and the car is completley nutral again, was after the car was lowered and the ajustable controll arm where set wrong i had toe out in the rear by onley a little, but man that was crazy. it roked at the auto cross, everyone was laphing how my mini was a point and shoot car, but super scary on freeway speeds under hard breaking!!!!

 

If you want to OVERsteer:


1. Find a LARGE wide open space
2. bring it up to 90
3. start turning left slowly while staying on the gas
4. swing hard to the right while letting go of the gas and hit the brakes to about 70% of full force.

Done it many times, it never fails.

when you get the hang of it you could (if it was legal) even do long controlled drifts on highway offramps

Have fun.

 

An easy way to remember oversteer and understeer is when the front bumper hits the gaurdrail it is understeer nad when the rear hits the gaurdrail it is oversteer.

 

No. Bigger rear swaybars on a FWD car increase the tendency to oversteer.

Anyway, the only way to get a FWD car to oversteer on a skid pad under power is to lift the throttle. If your foot was on the gas and you were expecting oversteer you might as well have been trying to get it to rain Mt. Dew.

 

Hahaha Christian I remember taking the telegraph clover leaf in your car when you had the set up!1 It was fun until we caught up to the traffic in front of us.!