This is a good point. As is stated, there has been an enhancement to the deformation so that it can be seen more readily in pictures. Don't expect the mushroomng to look quite as drastic in reality as the simulation shows, nor would the deformation of the SRP be that drastic. The simulation is primarily meant to show what reinforcement on the top of the strut tower can do to prevent mushrooming. The same force has been applied to both situations, and the effect enhanced in a 1:1 ratio between them.

More connecting points certainly would be better, but working with what we've been provided, the SRP's should do the job for all but the most severe situations. The sandwich effect they provide distributes the load over a greater area, lessening the concentration of force on the sheet metal that makes up the strut tower which results in the mushrooming.

 

I was thinking about this (never a good thing) and if it were to have attachment points below the weld and surround the whole strut tower then it would probably be a more effective solution. Neil mentioned the steel plate that goes underneath in the 3 series that has a similar strut tower problem, but maybe something similar over the top of the strut tower would work well.

On a side note...thank you to everyone that understands I am in no way trying to attack M7. I just thought the claims they made in the report and the evidence they presented was weak and unclear. To call something a tech or engineering report it must have some solid evidence to support it. To call something that and not put any evidence in it(or very little and unclear evidence), but then use it to try to sell a product is a disgrace to the engineering field. I am an engineer and I swore to uphold the professionalism and morals of engineering, but I felt this piece was very lacking in information and that is why I asked the questions in my first few posts.

 

I'm glad that we're all reasonable people, after all. I hope that we've learned a few lessons here. #1. Not to be snappy on a forum #2. To try to be nice, and mostly, #3. Please, please don't order up all the black front stut bars as I'm dying for that thing

Any word on when the black ones might be available? Pre-orders accepted?

 

The black braces are do to be in stock in 3 weeks. Give Peter ( 562 712 3270 ) a call as he is accepting pre orders . If you book thru the site you will end up with the titanium units as the black are not in our system as yet.

Randy
M7 tuning

 

While I'm certainly sorry that the analysis didn't satisfy your high standards, it should be fairly obvious that the point was not to present a technical be all and end all to answer the question. In fact, that version would lend itself to yourself and a few dozen other people on this site at most. As much as you are a engineer by trade, most people are not. The point was to try to convey an analysis of the problem and a solution in a clear and concise manner.

It is fair that it may be one man's opinion that it may not adhere to his professional or moral standards, but it's fairly obvious, doubly so in this business and here on NAM, that we cannot please everyone. It's just not going to happen. You say it lacks information, but what you mean is it lacks information you think should be included. Once again, this is fair, I won't deny you that.

I would, however, appreciate if you would consider the option of talking with us directly first with any questions you have concerning this or any other analyses that we post. This is not because we are trying to hide anything. I'd be more than happy to discuss with you any aspect of the simulations being run. However, more often than not the manner in which these threads degrade become detrimental to any sort of progress. We can't know or be expected to know the level of detail that everyone wants, but we're happy to provide it to anyone who asks.

If you feel that something is worth posting following a discussion, feel free. If you feel we haven't answered you in a satifactory manner, feel free to call us out on the carpet for it in the thread. But I'd certainly appreciate the opportunity and time to respond. As has been said, we're not always available 24/7 to keep up with the pace here, and a day or two of not being connected typically results in something akin to this thread, all of which could have been avoided with a little patience and a little direct communication.

 

Will, I'm not an engineer, but the initial pictures attempt to show deformation (or lack thereof) by use of color, with caveat that the colors are not representative between the two pictures. Yellow/red is said to be bad, and I see more yellow/red in the second picture, but am told it represents less deformation, apparently because the scales are different, yet we are not told the respective scales.
It's akin to showing two torque curves without scales. The curve may look nice but if you don't know the scale, what do you know?

By asking for scale, weezer hardly asked for the 'technical end all and be all'. The car was "essentially being dropped" - from 3" or 3'?? Why be defensive about basic questions? The initial post was characterized as a technical analysis.
In post #3 Peter said his questions would be answered by the 20th - is weezer at fault because Peter set an expectation you couldn't reasonably meet? (hey, it WAS a three day weekend!) Weezer could have been more diplomatic, but the defensive attitude seems a bit overboard.

I almost hated to jump in here, but the 'bashing the questioner' goaded me into it.

 

Well that is my point...the analysis wasn't clear and was actually rather pathetic in my opinion.

I didn't see any information in it supporting the solution. I basically got out of it if you put on the SRP plates then strut tower mushrooming will be cured and just take our word for it.

I really have no intentions of contacting M7 after being personally attacked for somehow "ordering" you guys around. I never ordered or commanded anyone to hurry up or do anything. I tried to be as respectful, sincere, and professional as I could, but alas it wasn't enough. If you ever post any more details or more detailed explanations then I will be glad to read them. For now I have vowed to no longer post in this thread after today.

My only last hope is that you will post a detailed analysis on adding the SRP plates and its effect on the weld around the strut tower. Tearing that weld apart could prove to be much more costly than a mushroomed strut tower.

Goodnight and goodluck M7.

 

This is exactly what I was talking about. Peter makes these kinds of promises in a very offhand, friendly manner, but then clams up when people ask him to make good on his promises. How can M7 expect to win new converts when this is the tactic employed with every new product launch?

 

I'm sorry but this is absurd to say the least, we are getting hammered for not
being timely, having extensive engineering data available for all to see, and
shoddy tactics with all our product launches. And I'm now claming up when it get's tuff......Dude I am one of the most available vendors on this board
you can reach me 24/7 (almost), our customer support is the best you can get anywhere.

The reason for the report Will made was simply to give more info......period.
We could just release the product.......

peter
Team M7
562-608-8123

 

I wasn't attempting to bash anyone, or be defensive, simply to steer a topic away from being a public flame war. That's all. I'm sorry if it came off in that light.

What I was trying to get across is the respective scales for deformation are equivalent, but the color scale is not.

 

here is a way to think about the effect of the plate:
imagine you just set the plate on top w/o bolting it. not much effect, eh?
now you bolt it on, using tiny bolts so the bolts will obviously be the first to yield. eventually, you work up to bolt sizes equivalent to stock. then go past that to massive bolts, where the bolt is not possibly the weak link. this is the assumption being made in the M7 analysis about the contribution of the plate to to strengthen the tower top. But what about the limitations of the three stock bolts?

 

Some weeks ago I took a hard hit (bump in road) on the right side front wheel. In looking at the strut tower it looks like it may have mush'ed a slight amound but, it so small that its hard to tell for sure. Question is, what should I do to repair any potential damage before installing the M-7 plates?

 

Again, this is your opinion and I can accept that. The target of this was first a confirmation of the mushrooming effect by computational analysis, and the resulting effect of adding the SRP to the same situation. It's clear that the SRP is not a perfect solution that will prevent 100% of all deformation, but it is an easy, attractive solution to reinforcing the area and protecting the strut towers.

Then you were trying to read too far into it. Given a steel surface of the approximate shape, thickness, and characteristics of the MINI's strut tower exposed to an impact from below, the SRP appears to give measurable resistance to deformation. This simulation is an approximation of a real world event. Obviously the entire car will be very difficult to model, so I simulated what I felt to be a close approximation. The deformation pattern seen in the unequipped model is indicative of actual mushrooming events shown here on this site. Taking the same situation, the SRP equipped side shows much less deformation.

I suppose that it doesn't matter that I felt personally attacked by you and others on this thread, does it? Working for M7 does not separate me from being human, so please understand that part of the delay was my reluctance to post a knee-jerk response fueled by an emotional reaction to some very harsh words towards me and my integrity. I understand how boards work, and that emotions may be falsly transmitted in a post through a poor or innacurate word choice, or just by the general tone of the thread/message. I have tried to take the time to separate my responses from that as best I can.

That said, if you want more details, contact me directly. I took for granted that the article was posted correctly, and didn't read it in detail at first. Now I see there are a few phrases that were not posted complete, and that probably would have cleared up at least a few of the issues you and others have had. I'm going to try to get them corrected.

 

It seems to be true that the force is being transfered from the sheet metal to the SRP, and to the bolt. And it seems likely that the bolt will strip or break before massive deformation occurs or the weld pops, but maybe not. Transfering the load away from the sheet metal is the only way to prevent mushrooming, and that's the goal of the SRP's.

 

It seems to me that a lot of the "vendor bashing" could be minimized by following this simple rule: Under promise and over deliver. This is followed by many vendors such as Webb Motorsports and Dinan. It ensures less speculation, less controversy, better products, and enhanced customer loyalty. . Oh well, I guess Darwinian theory works.

 

is there any further talk/thoughts on an under strut tower srp unit?

 

Peter and Will, great job! Got my black srp's installed today, and thankfully, there was no preexisting mushrooming in place. They went on like a charm, and I couldn't be more pleased! Job well done.

 

Larry you are so wise......

So you are telling everyone, that we over promissed and under delivered on the SRP.....Hmmm so we make a part that actually works (the only solution) and
your are telling everyone they should consider Webb motorsport or Dinan as a
source for this solution No all you did was posting to kiss upp to those guys nothing more, nothing less...........

PS. I don't know what stone you been hiding under but we have an incredible
customer loyalty, as many have seen on this board....so much for Darwin.

peter
Team m7
562-608-8123

 

looks to me like the sheet metal can deform in two ways: 1. it simply pushes up, stretching between the tower sides and the profile of the existing bearing plate triangle below which is pressing on it. this would not be affected by any additional upper or lower plate solution;
2. the area above the triangle "domes" out of plane as well as the triangle below, the bolts angle outward. this is controlled by stiffening either the plate below or adding another plate above, but is limited by the tension available in the bolts.

which of those deformation modes is happening and which did you focus on in the analysis?

 

Will I am not an engineer, and I certainly don't want to disrespect you in any way. My back ground is 35 years experience in the autobody repair industry, specializing in the unibody structure & suspension.
My thought on this plate is, that if it is attached only to the strut attaching bolts, as the bolts are pushed up from the force below, that the plate may simply raise up with the strut attaching bolts.
I know you said that the diagram showing deformation in the plate was exaggerated, but my contention is that the plate won't deform at all, but simply be displaced from the strut tower.
However I also know that reality is somtimes different than theory, so I may not be totaly correct. We will just have to see.
IMHO it may be best to just offer the product & let the product stand on its own merrit instead of offering technical proof.
Again thanks for working on this weak area of the Mini

 

I was wondering the same thing BLIZZ; I'll write my thoughts in another way, and, I'm not an engineer.

If a force is applied to the underside of the strut tower, that force will either be transfered to the body in general if no deformation occurs, or, the immediate areas around the bolts stretch carrying the bolts and the SRP with them? jlm, are you on this track too? I'm having trouble following your thoughts - I'm slow.

A sandwich sounds like a better idea, as was written...but is impossible given the Mini's suspension layout and desires to retain stock if not better than stock geometries.

What about a new perch design that is integrated with the SRP? More difficult to R&D, install perhaps...

 

it's the top of the strut assembly.

Dishing seems to be the main issue that I've seen. And the bolts splay a bit as well.

This idea seems that it would fight the splay, and help distribute the forces better.

But what gives next, no clue....

But it also seems to me that without going gonzo with welding (stronger top, welded to stronger sides), you aren't going to get much better than this has to offer.

Sorry, I didn't color code or quantify my statements!

Matt

 

I really agree here. It seems that lately some have seem to have forced some vendors hands into the numbers games. And it is then that those same people use those numbers to bash the product. I don't remember seeing anything here like what M7 has been offering in testing from other 'manufacturers' of Mini products. Did Alta ever do such a thing, ..not to my recollection. In fact they tried it just lately with their IC as they too fell into this 'show us the proof in numbers' game. Those results were never posted and I might bet it was a smart move on their part.
Asking for numbers on a personal basis is absolutely fine, but to demand that they be posted on a forum so they can then be publicly torn apart by the same people who are demanding them is nothing more then a game to some here.
IMHO, anyone who thinks about modding their car should have some understanding of why they should or shouldn't do it. Just call the vendor and discuss it with them, or call your favorite vendor and see what they have to say about it. It's a personal responsibility, not a public one.

 

The local shop here uses some creative hammer work to get them back in shape. Uses a piece of 2 / 4 and a good sized hammer or if you have a rubber mallet even better. It sounds stone age but it is what most have been doing at this point.

Randy
m7 Tuning