Just did a driving school (Gingerman), and I'm in the process of getting my car more track friendly. What I'm looking for is advice for a wheel/tire combo for a 2006 JCW (JCW brakes and suspension). I don't care about looks; these will be on for the track only (I chewed up my F1's so badly this weekend I'm definitely getting a dedicated track/tire set--I don't mind replacing tires, but I don't want to be running my street tires on the track--in fact I think I'll go back to runflats for the street, and non-runflats for the track).

What I want is a reasonably lightweight rim/tire combo that I can put on with a minimum of fuss--I don't want to worry about offsets and rings; I want something that I can put on and off myself quickly and won't rub (or rub too much). I'm going to Elkhart lake in September, and I'd like to get a setup before then. I'm leaning toward Hoosier tires, but I'm open to other suggestions. So what rims/sizes/tire combinations would you recommend to a novice driver?

 

For a novice track driver, I'd recommend Hankook RS-2 z212 tires. I ran 215/45R16, but that tire comes in a crazy number of sizes.

For wheels, the old Kosei K1 Racing wheel was the standard track wheel for many, but it is no longer available in sizes other than 15". The Kosei K1-TS seems to be pretty popular though. Kosei wheels will require centering rings also.

Rota wheels are another popular track choice. They can be found in the right center bore to not require rings.

Team Dynamics wheels are another good idea for the track.

 

I would not spend the money on Hoosiers yet, I ran six or seven events on my street tires and S lites. I'd just do some more events and try to figure out were you want to go with it. Spend the money on entry fees and get all the seat time you can. I've seen it written up many places you will be a better driver learning the limits on street tires before you go looking for the limits on R compond tires. Just keep you car stock and the same for a season and you will really start to learn and figure out what you what to do then with the gained knowledge. If you have money buning a hole in you pocket get track insurance because it's a joke to think your street insurance is going to cover you , also get a set of Schroth belts a great help.

 

You may be looking in the wrong direction if you are looking at track tires only.

You do have to consider brake clearance. Check with Alex@tirerack.com about what will fit for rim sizes, 17" seems most likely to fit but there can be some good 16" rims- it will depend on your budget. Be sure to get the right rims for your bolts whether 12mm old or 14mm new- depends on your build date. 2006 MCS came in both bolt sizes.

Tirerack does show many options for wheels both 16" and 17" and I even see some for 15" but you have to confirm with Alex this is correct for your JCW brakes. If so, then 15x7 rims can take some good tires for track use.
225/45-15, 225/50-15, 205/50-15 are all popular sizes.

For track use- you always will make better use of any tires if you have the correct suspension alignment and suspension upgrades. That is a whole new set of upgrades, adjustments and problems.

If you keep your stock suspension and alignment which is fine for street use, you will tear through your dedicated track tires just as fast or faster than your wore your Goodyear F1s. I know because I put track tires on a stock MINI (2 new tires on the fronts) and I put the same track tires on my MINI (the other 2 new tires on the same wheels) in the fronts and we ran both for 2 sessions of 15 minutes on the track doing just lapping. Wear on the stock MINI going slower was about 25% more wear on the outer front edges extending to the middle tread areas. These were $200 each Michelin Pilot Sport cups, a very durable track tire. Your wear with Hoosier R6 would be even faster albeit your lap times will be faster to the limits of your suspension and driving skills.

So you can keep your stock suspension but add maybe a rear adjustable swaybar. To adjust for more negative camber in the front either adjustable front camber plates or fixed front plates (cannot adjust if one side is more than the other once installed). For track use, about -2.5 degrees front camber and about -1.3 degrees rear camber (can use your adjusting nut for the lower rear control arms or use an adjustable lower rear control arm upgrade).Stock front camber is usually -0.5 degrees and is not adjustable.

Toe settings can also be changed for the track and still be OK for street driving. Since alignment will be changed, toe can be set at the same time.
Stock toe is set in front and rear. If you want more responsive front steering without wearing your front tires too fast then 1/16" toe out will work and in the rear about 1/16" toe in will work.

Common track tires used-
Yokohama A048
Michelin Pilot Sport cups
Toyo Ra1
Kumho Victoracers
Bridgestone RE01R
Kumho Ecsta MX
Falken Azenis ST-615
Hankook RS2 Z212
Nitto NT01

Competion Track tires-
Avon Tech R-A
BF Goodrich g-Force R1
Kumho V710
Hoosier A6 (autocross) or R6 (track)
Pirelli PZero Corsa

 

As for suspension, I have the JCW suspension--no other adjustments or sway bar, as of yet. It looks like I'm going to be shredding tires this next track date (darn it!) as I don't think there's going to be time to do anything else to the suspension.

I'll call Alex about 15X7's and go from there (I've got the 12 mm bolts)--it's kind of what I was leaning toward from what I've read here, provided I can clear the brakes. Hopefully I can find something I can switch out without rings or spacers--I haven't ever worked with either before, but maybe it's time to learn. I've got a great resource to help with though (an instructor with a Mini); that will come in handy for the suspension, but that's going to have to wait--this will probably be the last track event of the season for me. October is pushing it in Wisconsin...I kind of wanted to get some more time behind the wheel before doing too much more to the suspension anyway--it was my plan to get a better feel for how to drive the car the way its set up now before adding a stiffer sway bar and changing camber and toe in, but maybe I'm thinking about this wrong.

I definitely want to get rims dedicated for the track though--I really don't want to chew up my street tires and R90's, which aren't so hot for the track anyway. So my plan is to get the rims, and maybe go with a cheaper tire until I can get the suspension sorted out (I'm assuming the JCW suspension isn't adjustable--could be wrong here though--anyone know offhand?). Which tire would you recommend as a reasonably good tire to destroy at a reasonable price? Once the car is set up better for the track, I'll probably go with the Hoosier's, but until then, I guess it's not worth it ruining a tire like that.

Any advice is appreciated--I'm just starting to get into this, and I can't believe how much fun it is--although it's much harder than I ever thought it would be--especially mentally. But what a great challenge--and I've got so much room for improvement, I'm really looking forward to it!

And I can't believe how well this car holds up at the--it may not be the fastest, but it can definitely hold its own against some very fast cars.

 

my experience has been that w/out adding front camber, no tire can hold up well on the track. this situation gets worse as you get faster. i wouldn't spend big $$$ on track tires until you have more camber. if you are only going to do one more weekend this year, maybe get the wheels you want and look for some used max or ultra performance tires. used tires will hold up better on the track because the smaller tread blocks dissapate heat better and you will have less chuncking. have fun.

R-comps break away w/ much less warning than street tires. i may be best to log some more seat time before making this move

 

Here are my thoughts

Track wheels take a lot of abuse so don't buy new ones. let someone else take the hit on the new wheel purchase price just make sure they are "true". That means they are round and don't require lots of weights to balance them.

Don't worry about the paint or color of them either. they will get burned and ugly from the caustic dust and sparks that track pads throw off. Lots of people end up spray painting track wheels black for that reason.

Track tires are an expense that we all face and have to consider when tracking our cars. Wait as long as you can before you get R-cmpd tires. They mask errors new drivers make. It's better to learn from these errors at lower speeds insead of the speeds you'll reach with the R-cmpd tires. Also, street tires give you an audible warning when they are about to lose traction. R-cmpd tires just let go.

When looking for a street tire that you are going to track get the biggest tread blocks you can afford. I recomend the Faulken azenies. The bigger the blocks don't get your tires as wormy (those little pieces of rubber that come off your tires and get stuck everywhere). The smaller tread blocks like on the YOKO AVS es 100's are made for moving water out of the way. those get really wormy and wear out really quick on the track.

Suspension is another deamon that combo trackcar/daily drivers have to deal with. For more than a year I was changing by car back and forth from track to street setup. What a hassle that was. Now I keep my car the same all the time. That just happens to be the track set up not some happy median. I leave my set up the same all the time and i wear out tires. i'm alright with that. My recomendation is to get adjustable camber in the front and the back set it where you like it and leave it.

Brakes on the MINI are not good enough for track use. Don't take the long way around like i did by trying to fix it little by little spending countless dollars on things like hotter pads, hotter fluid and cooling ducts. Bite the bullet and get the big brake kit. I recomend the 13" wilwood kit from TCE.

good luck

 

Here's something else to think about as you get faster you begin to realize that unless you throw lot's and lot's of money at the MINI you're never going to be one of the faster cars and you might start thinking about a "better" track car and the less money spent on the MINI the better.

 

Bluesmini, I'm leaning toward what you've said--but the problem with getting used rims is I don't have that much time, and I don't mind forking over for new ones--looks don't matter, so that should make it easier, money isn't an issue, and I like the piece of mind of not worrying about getting ripped off or damaged goods (although if the right deal came by and it was trustworthy I'd definitely take a look). I think I'm going to go with a 15/7 that'll fit my JCW brakes, and also the Wilwood if eventually I go that route when the JCW's die (which hopefully won't happen in September). What rim size/tire combo are you using?

I'll definitely go with a cheaper tire--the guy next to me in an RX-8 had Azenies and loved them--maybe I'll go that route, then maybe when I'm a bit better and confident behind the wheel, and have the camber figured out, go with a more expensive tire.

As for camber, what you did sounds like what I'd end up doing; I don't mind wearing out my everyday tires--I drive sensibly off the track and have no desire to take my track driving to the street, so hopefully I won't chew up my everyday tires too terribly, but if I do, no big deal--I'd rather do that than have to switch back and forth, especially since I want to try and get a bunch of seat time next year.

Mozzerella, I understand where you're coming from--but my motivation is really not to have the fastest car, but to learn how to drive fast--and I'm a long, long way away from that. Eventually I may get there, but for right now, I think the Mini is perfect for me to learn in, and I don't mind spending a little here and there if it'll help the learning process (although it does add up--I've got JCW engine, brakes and suspension, as I wanted to stay in warranty, but that's getting to be less and less important). And I can still use it as my daily driver, which I'm not sure I'd do with something like a Cayman S.

One of the cool things about the driving school--one of the instructors said to my instructor something to the effect that "ah man, you get to go in the fun car"--and I was right next to a Boxster, and despite some of the other cars there, I can't tell you how many other people there told me how great the Mini was for the track.

While I was there in the novice class, I repeatedly passed the Boxster AND a GT3 as well as a Z3, had no problems keeping up with an RX-8, and only got caught and passed by a very fast well driven M3--and the person running the fastest was in a GTI, followed by the M3 and the myselfand the RX-8. At the end of the day, the owner's of the GT3 and the Boxster were frustrated; on the other hand I felt great--I learned a ton, and felt I really got something out of the car. I realize that in an intermediate or advanced class, the Mini won't hold up against these cars, but what I learned from all of this is as a novice is that us folks with the slower cars got much, much more out of the day than those with significantly faster cars--I didn't pass those faster cars because I'm a good driver (at this point I'll be the first to admit that I'm not), but because I could actually learn in it, and do some of the things the instructor was teaching me, and the guy driving the GTI was doing even better. On the other hand, if I was driving the GT3 and the Boxster in a novice setting, I'd probably be getting passed by a Mini too--something like a Cayman S (which I MIGHT buy someday), GT3 (which I'll never buy), is just too much car for me at this point. I'm just beginning, and I figure it'll be years before I'd get a Cayman S and track it, and as much fun as the Mini is, heck I might just stick with it instead anyway. And only one car wrecked--and it was an expensive one.

I'm not really worried about being competitive; maybe someday I will be, but I've got so far to go, and I love the car I've got so much, I don't think I'll be moving to something faster for awhile. I think it'll be 5 or more years before I'm ready to get out of my Mini.

 

I do not have experience with spacers, but I do have experience with hub centering rings. They are not a pain to use at all. In fact, one set of rings I had fit snugly enough in the wheel that I needed to use a rubber mallet to tap them in place on the wheel, and they then stayed in the wheel perminently - so it was just like the wheel was already hub-centric. Even if the rings don't fit that well, they are still easy to deal with (as long as you don't lose them in transit). Just place them in the hub of the wheel and they'll stay in place well enough that you can get the wheel on the car with no problems. But when the wheels are not on the car, the rings may fall out - which leads to the "lost ring" problem.

You may also have to clean up the hubs on the car to get the rings on and off the car easily. It's usually easy to get the rings on, but without cleaning up the hubs then can be very difficult to get off the hubs. A wire brush / wheel will take off any rust that has developed and that usually is enough to make life easy. But, find a small flat-head screwdriver you can use to pry any stubborn rings off the hub just in case.

I probably made centering rings sound worse than they really are... Like I said, one set of rings I had were just as easy to deal with as a wheel that came with the correct center bore.

 

And, for a cheap tire to destroy the Hankook RS-2 is the best choice in my opinion. Mine lasted forever, but I have camber plates on my car. They have a bit less grip than an Azenis, but they last longer overall and put up with heat better. Great cheap track tire. Just get them scrubbed in before you hit the track.

 

15x7's that I know fit (I asked this question before, but didn't have the $ to actually get them):

enkei RP-o1 (discontinued though, so hard to find)
kosei T1S

if money is no option, my recommendation:

motegi trak-lite

my wife has these wheels in 17 (for her street wheels), they are super nice, forged (so you know they are strong) and real light (dunno about the 15s, but my wife's 17's are only 14.3 lbs). They aren't like other motegi's

 

I these motegi trak-lites as my track rims in 15" problem is too small for a big brake kit, you need too plan what you want.

 

Shameless self plug here....if you're running the smaller 15" wheel with a modest amount of caliper clearance you might consider my "on the shelf, in need of a home" custom 11.75 x 1.00" DynaPro caliper kit. Normally this custom build might run upwards of $1100 but I'm in a move-it-out mood at this time.

 

And what, pray tell, might THAT price be?

 

cct1,

OK, you want to learn about track driving and you want to develop more skill.

While you can learn well enough on street tires and OEM rims, your plan on saving the stock wheels for street use and using a dedicated set of wheels for track use is fine as long as your budget allows.

15" rims are easy enough to find and don't have to cost as much ($99 to $240 per wheel). 15x7" will fit according to tirerack.com with +35mm offset. Many rims sold by tirerack will come with the correct sized centering ring that should be used however I do recommend the metal rings as they handle heat better than hard plastic which I have melted from track use in the past (then the wheel won't come off or the ring gets stuck to your hub and you can't put on your stock wheel to go home). Using anti-seize might help a little.

At tirerack.com you can find-
Kosei K1 TS 15x7 +38mm offset 12.6 lbs $149 each in silver, light grey or orange, comes with center caps and plastic centering rings.
Motegi Track Traklite 15x7 +35mm offset 11 lbs $224 to 232 each in flat black or anthracite with polished lip.
Motegi Track Traklite 2.0 15x7 +35mm offset 10 lbs $232 each in Silver with machined lip or black with machined lip (10.4 lbs)

15" tires can be
205/50-15 a common size, look for
Falken Azenis Rt-615 $76 each 23.2" tire diam., fits rims 5.5-7.5" wide
21.2 lbs, tread depth 8/32"
Kumho Ecsta MX $79 each 19 lbs 23.1" tire diam. 220 treadwear 9/32" tread depth

225/45-15 -more for competition and available in Avon Tech R-A and Hoosier A6/R6 or
Hankook Ventus Rs2 Z212 $89 each 23" tire diam., fits rims 7-8.5" wide
225/50-15 another common size that should fit stock suspension, it's not as small a tire as the other two (helps with lowered gearing when tire is small- good for earlier MINIs like 2002-2004)
See
Hankook Ventus Rs2 Z212 $89 each 23.9" tire diameter, fits rims 6-8" wide
BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KD $148 each, 24 lbs, 24" tire diam.9/32" tread depth. 200 treadwear

16" rims will also work but usually this adds weight and cost. If you can't find tires that go with 15" rims then look for 16" tire sizes.

17" rims are heavy unless you want to spend more and tire selection isn't that good but sometimes you can get 215/40-17 or 205/40-17 for track use.

Tires- For cost and durability issues many choose Extreme Performance or Max Performance Summer tires. Full tread depth (new tires) won't work as well due to the deep tread which tends to overheat easily on the top layers and remain cold on the lowest. This can result in chunking- which is loss of the chunks of tread from the sheering forces on the track between hot and cold layers of rubber. Happens alot. The correct depth for track use is shallow (as in used tires) about 4/32 to 6/32" deep, not 10/32" when new.

R compound tires wear fast and offer better lap times. They are well suited for limited competition use, not really for learning on. You you get into trouble you can loose control pretty quickly and without warning as mentioned before. So typically you want to be more experienced plus you don't want to destroy $200 tires in one or two outtings.

Brakes and suspension- just use what you have for now but think about adding the adjustable rear swaybar. Probably 22mm and use the softest setting to start. Upgraded brake fluid is always helpful for track use.

Later on, brake upgrades and front adjustable camber plates are possible.

 

One more word of wisdom

if you buy new wheels go ahead and get 6. It sucks when the wheels you bought are no longer made and you've bent one beyond repair. It happens to track wheels. That little off-track experience you took at 108mph isn't so friendly to your wheels. Not quite the same as rubbing the curb at the gas station and you can just have re-painted.

 

Another piece of advice is figure out what tires you want to run now, and what R-compound tires you will want to run later. Then see what sizes they are available in. It sucks when you have already bought 16" rims and then decide you want to run Toyo RA-1 tires, which do not come in a good size for 16" wheels (but do for 15" and 17" wheels).

 

According to Alex at the Tire Rack, the Trak-Lite will clear the JCW brakes. Not sure about other big brake kits though.

While we're on the topic, anybody know if 15" Rota Slipstreams clear JCW brakes?

 

I did one up for Vegas and had not takers. Listed on the web page at $1139.
I'd do it to your door for $985. Just like to move it out before the end of the year.

 

If you want a decent set of tire that are cheap look at the General Exclaim UHP. I know several people that have them and say they are much better than their price or name would suggest. One of the fastest MINIs in St. Louis is running them (he is an instructor too).

On my first few track days in the novice group, I was running at the front of the pack. I would pass all sorts of faster cars. It is a nice ego boost, but in reality it is only the experience of the drivers. At my last track day, I got bumped into the intermediate group. Wow, what a difference. I was now one of the slower cars. But that is alright. Instead of coming up on a group of slow cars and having to wait to pass, I had a clear track in front of me. I just had to keep an eye on my mirrors and let people pass (darn Murchielago thought he was faster than me or something ) But I was running just as fast as most of the other cars in the twisties, it is the straights where our little engine just can't keep up (and I have a pulley/intake/exhaust)

If you are serious about tracking your car and want to do any mods, camber plates should be at the top of your list. They will pay for themselves in a few sets of tires. I have my car set at -1.5 (which is all I can get with the stock springs) and I still wore the outside edge of my front left tire at my last track day.

 

Thanks everyone--Minihune, that last post pretty much solidified it for me--everyone's advice is GREATLY appreciated, and has saved me a few headaches. I'm going to call Alex as soon as I have a few free minutes--I'm leaning toward one of the Motegi rims (15x7) and Hankook's, but I've got to make sure all the tire sizes will work, as eventually I'd like to work my way into Hoosier's once I get the sway bar/suspension done, which realistically won't happen until the spring. And also that they'll clear bigger brakes than what I've already got (Maybe another upgrade after the JCW's die, but I'll probably do the sway bar/camber plates before upgrading the brakes further).

How do you guys break in new tires before going to the track? I'm going to Elkhart Lake Sept 9th, and I doubt a fresh set of clean unbroken in tires is a great idea--how do you break these in?

 

I think if I were doing it again I would go with 16 or 17 inch rims it leaves you a lot more room for different ideas down the line.

I believe only a special order Wilwood kit will fit and even with JCW brakes I would think at some point you'll want to upgrade.

 

tire break-in really amonts to just putting about 100-200 highway miles on them. what you're doing is getting the release compound off the rubber. the release compound it what goes between the tire mould and the rubber while being made.

also you are putting one easy heat cycle on them. In a perfect world you would put your car on jack stands right after you got off the road so the tires can cool at the same rate. not realistic though. Tirerack will heat cycle tires for you if you really want them done right.

 

Ok, I'm about to search for a tall building and jump. Not so high as to potentially be lethal, but high enough to maybe sprain something--I don't know, maybe an ankle. I'm still learning heel to toe, so it wouldn't be all that of an inconvienence at this point...

The more I read, I saw a number of people who use 15's for autox, and 17's for the track. So I thought what the heck, I'll go with hubcentric rota slipstreams in 16 and split the difference (although I'm not sure about the autocrossing; I understand the allure of it, and its a great place to learn, but I like the track much, much more--just a personal preference, and I'll probably only autocross if/when I can't get to a track). Except I can't find anyone who has them (the people at 18racing are extremely helpful, of all the people I talked to today, really seems like an outstanding vendor), so now it looks like rings it is. Not a big deal, but I definitely don't want to mess with spacers.

So here are my options, none of which are ideal:

1. 15/7 Motegi tracklite or Kosei's from tire rack, , either of which I like, and both of which clear the JCW brakes (The JCW suspension drops me 1 cm--any rubbing issues with either of these offsets, 35mm or 37mm respectively?), or team dynamic 15/7 from Outmotoring which I THINK clear the JCW's, but I'd have to get that confirmed. But then I'm going to need a tire, and Tire rack doesn't have either the Hankook's or Azeni's, either of which I kind of had my heart set on (Hankook's first, Azeni's second, but it doesn't really matter), and Outmotoring only sells rims. So I could buy the Motegi's and get the Azeni's from Sear's, which apparently doesn't have computer balancing, so I'd probably have to go to ANOTHER place to have them mounted and balanced. A pain, but doable. Or if there isn't that much of a dropoff, I could get the entire package from Tire rack and get Kumho's, at a reasonable price but from what I've read they don't seem as good a choice as the other two, and I'm not sure if they ship metal rings.

2. Get a wheel/tire package from 1010, and pay through the wazoo (I'm not exactly sure where the wazoo is anatomically speaking, but I'm fairly sure I don't want to pay through it). That's going to run just under 1700 with Hankook's; everything is mounted, rings are included (I'd have to check if they're metal, I'm definitely going metal), and apparently they require special lug nuts, which are also included. I could do this cheaper elsewhere, but this is looking more and more attractive from a convienence standpoint.

3. Go with 16's in any of the above configurations's, which will give more brake options when the JCW's are shot. On the other hand, there is already one good 15" brake from TCE, and what appears to be another one from TSW on the way.

So which option is best and why, or is there another option I've missed?

At least my racing harnesses arrived today, thank god one thing was easy...