This thread was inspired from the tire age thread.

What I am interested in addressing is drivers education. Are we doing enough?

Tirerack & BMW CCA sponsors the Street Suvival series training for new teenage drivers.

<---- Check out the video!

This is the type of vehicle handeling dynamics training I feel is missing from this current driver's ed.

What do you think?

Alex

 

If your drivers were better trained, wouldn't we be safer than relying on ABS ot DSC to save us?

Stability controll particularly I feel interfers with your perception of the vehicle's attitude. If you don't have it, then you learn to refine your car control.

Like driving in the winter.. with out snows - we adapt our proficencies. But I still use winter tires, I'll take any advantage on packed and icy surfaces.

Alex

 

I've always found this spot by James May from Top Gear quite interesting...gives insight into why Finland produces so many good drivers and draws linkages to their quality drivers' education programs:

 

First thing in order is a graduated licensing format found in very few states. This format requires far more time with an adult, limited night time driving, limited passengers in the car and the requirement for young drivers be able to pass further testing and such before they achieve the next level.

The bigger problem today Alex is that the school systems don't offer what was once considered conventional training- they do some (if any) classroom and the high budget schools may offer the use of simulators. Less and less schools provide real world driving and training today. The schools say the responsibility lies with the parents to do this and cite budget shortages which prevent them from doing so. However...behind the scenes you'll find that the educators are both fearful of participating today (often many of them suffer the same driving faults!) and keenly aware of liability issues presented today that were not even thought of 30yrs ago. In short: the schools don't want to be involved.

Parents could do more to teach and already do; many the bad habits the kids learn today mimic those habits they've seen their parents do for years. Where do you think girls (mostly) learn to hook a steering wheel?? Just the physical motion is unnatural...Road rage comes from Dad and distractions from watching siblings perhaps.

Distractions today are the leading cause of teen accidents. Pick one. They don't get the notion of what 3500lbs does at 60mph when they reach for the radio, Mp3 player, eat, call a friend and the all too popular texting. Their chances for an accident double with each additional teen in the car with them yet we put them on the road by the car load every day.

I could go on but only when parents are forced to step up and the states forced to change licensing will you see improvements. Educational programs reach some and are worthwhile but it's a drop in the bucket....

I'm headed to Detroit next week for a couple days of training with Ford at the Romeo proving grounds to try and offer some thought to a couple hundred.

-TC
4yr Instructor, Ford Driving Skills for Life
https://www.drivingskillsforlife.com/

 

Well let's see.........

Driver's Ed is nothing like it was when I went thru it. Kids in our district had to pay for it if they wanted to take it. So that left the education to the parents that couldn't afford the training or refused to pay for something that used to be included (me). Spent many an hour with both of my boys out and about driving, and at the autoX. Did I do as good a job as I wanted.....probably not. But w/o any other alternatives available they got the best education possible.

As to the whole"nannie" argument.........As long as the system does not intrude into the normal driving experience and does what it is designed to do, then I whole heartedly endorse them. As for the MINI's system, this is a very not intrusive begnin "nannie". It only activates when you ask the car to do something that it would not be able to do on its own w/o loosing control. Such as trying to dodge something in the road at speed, assisting the car in an over/understeer situation. These are things that no amount of training can accomplish. You do not have the capability of applying the brakes to an individual caliper to help rotate the car and try to keep it going in the direction you want.

Now would training help keep you out of some of these situations........yes. But not always. There is no way that training is going to prepare you for the emergency swerve or slick patch of road. I like the fact that you can maintain control of a car while stomping on the brakes and driving around an obstacle.

 

I love instructing at the Tire Rack Street Survival schools we hold locally here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area with the Lone Star Chapter of the BMWCCA... We started our schools 5 years ago, and we've helped at least 400 students become MUCH better drivers!

We hold two schools a year...

Kids enter the school knowing little - and leave knowing a LOT more about how their car performs in specific situations like threshold braking, braking with ABS, emergency lane changes, skids, etc.

 

I've always thought training in regard to what happens at the edge is much better then just drivers education.

Much people freak in a lock up with ABS and release the brake peddle. Knowing what it feels like when the rear comes lose and how to get if back are all good skills for your avg person.

Basically everything txwerks said.

You can't do these thing on the road without risking a ticket so schools are your best things.

 

I was taught to drive in a Simulator in HS (early 80's), my Mom took me out to practice in her cars (Montego...??). I've told her before that "I'm glad you taught me how to drive, but I'm glad I DON'T drive like you"...they don't call her Shirley Muldowney for nothing!!

 

I have never seen a drivers ed class really train a driver.
My 16 year old is going to the Street Survival school in October. After that he is going to a track driving school.

 

The amazing thing is that their training is one year not one semester and their test is a grueling 6 days
No wonder they have disproportionately more F1 drivers than any other country.

 

More training would be good clearly. Drivers Ed in the late 60's focused basically on just basics with a bit of parking lot experience and range driving followed up by a couple of hours on roads with an instructor.
My Dad taught us to drive. He was the safety person for the phone company and consequently taught us the basics of defensive driving and vehicle control.....where I learned the most however was Ice Racing, both timed runs and wheel to wheel. This was done on frozen lakes. Believe me if you learn to negotiate a convoluted course and ice at speed, you can drive anywhere.
What scares me are the people putting on make-up, drinking coffee, smoking a cigarette, talking on a cell phone, driving like their hair is on fire. Talk about distracted. Unfortunately, training only gives them the opportunity to understand that distractions can cause them and those around them big dangerous problems. What it doesn't do is convince them not to make those distracting choices.

 

Of course not. How could you? Even if you could teach every teen how to drive safely, that still leaves the rest of us.

It sounds like a great program, and I think something like this should be mandatory for getting a license. I commend you for doing it when, seemingly, parents and government have failed.

Here is how we teach teens to drive in California -- online.

Actually, I have no idea what is happening in California schools now. In a previous millennia, when I learned, we drove around in cars that had two brake pedals so the instructor could stop the car if needed. We were taught how to deal with traffic, and follow the rules of the road. It taught us absolutely nothing about how to handle a car in an emergency situation.

One reason electronic systems are a good idea is that only a very small percentage of drivers in the USA know how to handle a car that is out of control. Many don't know how to handle a car that is in control.

Another reason I believe that electronic systems are a good idea is that they can do what humans can't. Electronic systems can sense things that drivers cannot, such as wheel rpm, react faster than humans can, and do take actions that humans can't, such as applying the brake on one wheel.

Even a very skilled professional can do better in difficult situations with electronic systems than without. There was a video going around (might have been from Top Gear) where an obstacle course was set up on an ice lake in Finland. A skilled driver attempted to get through it at 70 mph with all electronic systems off. He didn't make it and crashed through a styrofoam wall. With an electronic system on (similar to the MINI's DSC) he made it through at 70 mph. Other evidence is that before electronic handling systems were banned in F1, they proved to be quite effective--in spite of being driven by some of the best drivers in the world.

Electronic systems wont stop cars from crashing. Having them doesn't mean that drivers don't need more training. They don't substitute for driver skill. What they do is enhance the survival chances of any driver. Even if you could train every driver in the USA to be a master at car control, you wouldn't eliminate the benefit of electronic systems.

 

 

Now I've been a gearhead my whole life so my first day after turning 16 i wanted to get my learner's permit. My dad refused to wait in the waiting room until i was well passed 17. I spent like 4 months driving my dad's car with him in it before taking my road test. Mind you my dad is a driver by profession, however also the worst teacher in the world.
My first road test I did fail. I failed because I was extreemly nervous and my instructor decided to turn off my defrosters mid parking. Me being very nervous already didn't even think to turn them back on until i pretty much couldn't see. She then failed me for not properly making a parallel park...before I had even finished it. I was a little close to the car but was nowhere near hitting it. Anyway...try two
I'm sitting at a T intersection. I have a stop sign and am making a left, the car to my right who is also making a left has no stop sign. She stops and sits there waiting for me. While she is not taking her right of way i decide to move up a bit and look beyond some bushes so that i may make my turn when she turns in front of me. The guy fails me for not yeilding to right of way...mind you she had right of way and did not do anything for a good 15 sec while i waited.
Try three i passed with flying colors..mostly because I encountered no dumb people and my instructor just let me drive.
I failed twice, and am licensed now 3 months, yet every adult I take in my MINI (which mind you is quite a bit faster than most cars and not exactly the smoothest car) tells me that I am a better driver than most of their adult friends. I then ask them why and most of the time get the reply that it is because while i may drive a little bit fast, I am aware of people and make it a point to avoid problem drivers and get out of the way of old people, large vehicles, and women in minivans. I am also one of the three 18 year olds I know that can properly drive a stick.
My friend drives a 2010 Ford Fusion. He got his license 4 months before I got mine. I took a ride with him and he almost hit three cars and almost ran some people over. I was amazed at the fact that the kid really just cant pay attn to driving the ****ing car. The same is true for half of my other friends (all of which now never drive as I always drive regardless of the amount of gas i pay for). I went to hang out with the 2010 Fusion guy and long behold he rear ended some poor woman at like 15mph because he wasn't looking...in front of his ****ing car!

What I really am trying to say is this. Driving Education won't keep a kid off their cell phone or make them pay attn any more than a yelling parent will get them to quit drinking. Something will happen, they will say "I'm Sorry" and pay their fine/insurance/whatever and be on the road again.
Some people can drive, most people can't drive. It is by instinct of self preservation, understanding of how roads work, and assumption that the other guy is an idiot that we all drive every day. Until someone learns those things they will be forever doomed regardless of training or testing done. Nobody performs the same in a test as they do on the roads.

 

You sponsor Street Survival for teenagers but few organizations offer anything for adults other than the BS insurance courses you take after you've gotten a ticket.

I signed my wife up for BMW CCA's Car Control Clinic and she learned a bit and gained some confidence.
http://www.ggcbmwcca.org/?page=clinic

Beyond that, there is little available for adults.

 

I think regular local chaper BMW club autocross would be able to offer the enviroment to learn handleing dynamics.This is the same basic theme without the classroom time in street survival. Ususally weekend events are pretty cheap, they used to be at least. $10-15 entry fees

On the higher end, there are numerous option offered at The Center for Driving Sciences in Steamboat CO -I have done their fastest ride on ice school, and its quite helpfull. They really let each participant advance at their own level.

If you can do it well in ice and snow, dry and wet are easy!

http://www.winterdrive.com/

Alex

 

After driving for 5 years, my daughter attended the Street Survival school a couple weeks ago and learned a lot about car control. The exercises were great and she had a great time. For example, the first exercise was to brake hard to activate the ABS which many of the students had never felt, including my daughter because she usually drives a truck without ABS. When the Mini's ABS came on, she momentarily let off the brake (not good) but the exercise quickly got her braking very hard and fimilar with the ABS.

This type of training should be mandatory.

One thing I noticed is that her bad habits such as driving with one hand on the steering wheel (and bearly on the wheel) were not corrected by the Street Survival school. She has been driving for 5 years before taking the Street Survival school so I suspect it is best that the students take the school early before developing bad habits. These types of bad habits are hard for parents to correct because the kids do not want to be corrected by the parents. However, the students do listen to the instructors.

I suggested to the local Street Survival coordinator that a session be added to future classes where the students try the lane change exercise with one hand to help show them how much better they can control a car with two hands.