(Warning in advance...this ended up getting a little long. SORRY!)

OK folks. Maybe you saw me going back and forth on the brake change for the past few weeks, maybe not, but over Sunday and Monday, with a little help from Steve D, Gabe, and Scott, I changed the fluid (stock to Ate Superblue) and the pads (stock to Ferodo 2500). On Sunday I took care of the fluid, which is a little time consuming, tedious and monotonous yet very very easy (it's easiest to do with three people, but doable with two); and I did the front brake pads which was an absolute breeze! On Monday, I did the rear pads, which was one of the worst experiences of my life, but which I got done nonetheless. Here are my thoughts about the job.

--Fluid Change--
We had Scott working the pedal, Steve watching/filling the fluid as needed, me working the bleeder and Gabe drinking beer like a champ! I did not bleed the clutch line, because we didn't have enough time, it was going to be a huge hassle (I have a skid plate), and because it goes completely unmentioned in other discussions of fluid changes. A point I would like to make is that Superblue DOES mix with the stock fluid. I drained down about halfway into the reservoir before topping up with the blue, and the resulting mix was greenish; it's not like mixing oil with water--different brake fluids DO mix. I tried to compensate for this by bleeding all of the lines for much longer than seemed necessary, pulling about 10-12 ounces of fluid out of each of the rears and maybe 3-4 ounces out of each of the fronts. I waited until it was several ounces into the DARK blue (i.e. not blue green or mixed fluid) before I quit bleeding each line. It only took one can of the Superblue to replace all of the fluid (even though I had read on here to expect to use two cans), and I really felt like I flushed all of the old out. It was running pure blue on all four corners at the end. However, on second though, I can't help but feel that there could be a bit of the old still in there. I expected for them not to mix...I'll feel better after I do it again at some point.

--Front Brakes--
This was unbelievably easy. We did this after dark with Steve's handy shoplite hooked inside the wheel well, and I think we had each corner done in about 15 minutes each (thanks to Steve and Scott for their surgical-team-style help). The piston is a breeze to retract on the front by using a brake pad spreader that I picked up from Sears. It looks like this:

and it works like a charm. You just leave the inside pad in and turn the spreader and it does the job for you. Very easy.

--Rear Brakes--
Sweet Lord. This was awful. It took me almost 90 minutes to do ONE side. To be fair, a good 45 minutes of that time was spent trying to make the piston retract. See...the inside piston won't just depress like you'd like it to (and like the front does). The inside piston ROTATES as it extends, and it's not much in the mood to retract. This also makes it really fun to REMOVE the caliper/pads in the first place, because there's maybe a half millimeter of room between the pads and the rotor. Not cool. So what I finally devised to make the piston retract was using my handy pad spreader to apply pressure on the face of the piston and then rotate the piston with my plumber's vice grip which has a nice round style to the nose. Of course I could only get a half a rotation in at a time, and then had to reset the spreader, tighten it a bit, reset the vice grip and get comfy again. This isn't fun, but I got it done, and the pads pop right in, although the inside pad's retaining clip is a little annoying...you just have to play with it a little to get it to set right. The second side only took me about thirty minutes total, so it really isn't that bad once you know what you're doing.

--Conclusions and Comments--
I called a MINI tech (Adam R. at Bill Jacobs) today to ask them about the tool that they MUST be using to make the rears retract. Yes. There is a secret MINI exclusive tool that looks much like the spreader that I use, but it has four little pins on the end to fit into the little holes in the rear piston, so it turns it as it's applying pressure. I should have a quote by the end of the day on what this runs and what its availability is.

Considering how generally incompetent I am regarding things mechanical, I would say that just about anyone could change his/her own brakes. If you know what you're doing, the whole pad process should be completely done in two hours. If you have helpers like I did, you could probably do pads and fluid in under two hours.

About the Ferodos: I bedded them in yesterday afternoon in an empty parking lot (in Lincoln Park near Montrose, if you're interested). They seem to be roughly as grabby as the stocks when cold, but once warmed up seem to catch a bit better. They also seem a little more linear (?), as in if I press harder, they seem to grab that much harder, whereas the stocks seem to not grab much harder when you're really pushing the pedal; stocks are basically medium braking or full-on anti-lock action, without much in between. Also, they don't seem any louder than the stocks, and they don't squeal (yet?); I put a healthy dose of anti-squeal on all the pads, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that that will take care of it.

I'll post more after I try them out on the track in two weeks.

Cheers!

Maxwell

 

The Ferodo 2500s and fluid change (brand/type undecided yet) are things I will be doing to my car soon (among other things). I am curious how the Ferodos hold up not just in high performace applicartions, but the daily grind as well. Now that it's getting colder out, I'm curious how the dead-cold performance of the 2500s (and other 'performance' pads) compare to stock.

What I am looking for are pads that offer a better feel, reduced fade in heavy use and a reduction in the dreaded brake dust that collects in the first mile of driving with freshly cleaned wheels. I've been seeing people switch their pads over recently and I'm curious how the long-term and everyday driving aspects are going to pan out.

Congrats on the new brakes, hope you enjoy!

 

>>What I am looking for are pads that offer a better feel, reduced fade in heavy use and a reduction in the dreaded brake dust that collects in the first mile of driving with freshly cleaned wheels. I've been seeing people switch their pads over recently and I'm curious how the long-term and everyday driving aspects are going to pan out.

I'm with you Greatbear! I'm toying with switching to the Mintex or EBC pads because of the brakedust issues, but I'm curious how well these other pads hold up during daily driving.

 

So, what you're saying is that without this special tool, even highly competent brake shops could charge up the **** for replacing these pads?

 

>>>>What I am looking for are pads that offer a better feel, reduced fade in heavy use and a reduction in the dreaded brake dust that collects in the first mile of driving with freshly cleaned wheels. I've been seeing people switch their pads over recently and I'm curious how the long-term and everyday driving aspects are going to pan out.
>>
>>I'm with you Greatbear! I'm toying with switching to the Mintex or EBC pads because of the brakedust issues, but I'm curious how well these other pads hold up during daily driving.

It all depends what you are trying to do with your MINI.

If you are doing generally daily driving and you want the above characteristics in an inexpensive basic good performing street pad then the Mintex Red will work. It also has reduced brake dust and is fine for daily use but not well suited for heavy track use like the Ferodo DS2500 (which isn't the best for street use).

For street use and stop and go traffic you need a brake shoe that works well at low temperatures when you are not using your brakes that much. All low speed and not heavy stopping. On the track it is completely different, in a short time from doing laps at high speed and doing tight corners the brakes get hot quickly and you want to use brake pads that stop well at higher temperatures-thus reducing fade and improving brake stopping power.

EBC greens will reduce brake dust and do a little better on the track than the Mintex Reds but the reds cost less and last longer on the street. Take your pick. The OEM pads are junk.

 

Well...yes and no. In theory, they should be able to do it all in no more than 90 minutes, if they're a good shop. They should have the tools, though. I dug around on the google today and found that there is a kit which has adapters for just about every piston design out there today. It's available for $50 or less online. I'll post about the MINI thing later, as I'm still not sure as to how available it is.

In my (admittedly limited) two days of using these brakes, I would say that "dead-cold" they are a little softer than stock, but honestly not by much. After about five minutes of stop and go, I would say that they work at least as well as stocks. After ten minutes of stop and go and (purposely) three to five "hard" brakes, these really start to work well. I think that they are more than adequate for city use unless you drive like an idiot (i.e. you frequently have to mash your brakes because you didn't see the old lady crossing the street right in front of you! :smile:

 

Glad to hear it went well, now for a few questions:

Did you happen to take a pic of the rear caliper piston? If so can you post? The reason I ask, I'm wondering if the "Old Standby" (needle nose pliers) can be used as. Stick points in holes and twist.

Did you turn or sand? Or nothing?

I have a concern with your comments about brake pedal feel, you said the "After ten minutes of stop and go and (purposely) three to five "hard" brakes, these really start to work well." And say that they feel softer then stock. Is that the pedal feel or the pad feel, if it's the pedal then you might need to bleed the brakes again. When you combine the 2 sentences, it's a classic description of having to pump up the brakes to get them to work. Anyone else with a comment?

Also for those wanting to replace the brake fluid, there is a great tool out there that is canister with a handle that when you squeeze creates a vacuum, drawing the brake fluid, from the res through the caliper and into the can. Makes short work of fluid changes and does not require the amount of pedal pumping. I start at the wheel farthest from the res, then the other side rear, then the right front, and finally the caliper closest to the reservoir.

Eastwood makes a nice one

I also pedal pump just to make sure I clear the piston of the old juice.

 

Sorry to mislead. No, it's not that they feel a lot softer than stock, it's just that I think that when they're dead cold, they don't feel like they have quite the grab of stocks, but after a few minutes of normal braking, they felt up to stock levels, and today (I was intentionally trying to raise the temps) after several very hard brakes coupled with some hard city driving, I felt that they were significantly grabbier than stock. I can feel the pads engaging at the same rate. I'm pretty sure that the brake bleeding was fine. I'm just trying to provide some analysis for people who (like me) want to have a pad that is suitable for the street, but that is great on the track (rather than a pad that's quite good for the street and stinks on the track).

As for the piston, it's possible that you could needle-nose it, though I didn't think of that. It's just that it's pretty firm in its reluctance to turn AND you have to provide fairly substantial force while turning to get it to retract. It's basically four holes in the face of the piston that are maybe a centimeter apart in a square pattern? I'm wondering if some of the tools that I've seen would do the trick. I'm tempted to try them.
_________________

 

lol, no need to use any special tools, it's the ole' "leverage the piston back in the caliper" trick. For the rear, make sure to have your e-brake off! Changing pads only - 5 minutes a corner max.

Love my 2500's, they feel great - slightly less pedal effort than expected, but also better braking resolution - something I would think oxymoronic in the past. Dust is way less than stock, but a bit more than EBC Green stuff.

Cheers,
Ryan

 

Thanks for the e-brake tip, Ryan, I'll make sure to remember that next time! :evil:

 

I hope that you were careful not to create grooves in the piston surface as you rotated it, could lead to a nasty leak. As far as the brake tool goes, it is a common-type tool for anyone who changes brakes on a regular basis to have- looks like your spreader, but has a cube wtih 6 different patterns that rotates as it is pressed in.
I hope that you did NOT turn or sand your rotors, this is a very bad practice that can induce new braking problems.

 

I have Zimmerman slotted and drilled rotors all around and EBC Green Stuff in the front only. OEM in the rear. Love them and great stopping ability. Looks better to!!

_________________
Everglades MINI Cooper"S" 2002-203HP

 

I didn't end up sanding or turning, more out of laziness and time constraints than anything else. It's interesting that that seems to be one of the single most controversial topics regarding brake changing. Alex says that you MUST turn the rotors when changing pads. Smokey swears by sanding. I've heard people at the track swear that something must be done, otherwise the new pads won't work with the rotors (due to buildup from the old pad compound). I just decided to leave rotors alone and I might go the turning route later if I have serious problems.

As far as "grooving" the piston surface leading to leaks, what do you mean exactly? I was very careful to only apply the vice grip to the very edge of the piston (the narrow metal lip just outside of the rubber boot). I defnitely introduced some abrasions there, just from the use of the pliars required to turn the piston. What would cause a leak there? Is this really something that I should be concerned about, or should I just watch for brake fluid in my driveway in the future?

Also, tool-wise...would this be the tool that you're mentioning?

These seem to be readily available for no more than $10 all over the web. I'm just wondering if it for sure works with BMW/MINI rear calipers.

Thanks for the insight!

 

Yep, only the one I have access to is black, powder coated.

You shouldn't have to worry about leakage if you only grabbed near the piston cap, I was more concerned you'd have grasped the actual piston, somewhere past the boot groove.
Turning should only be done to remove deep grooves from the rotor surface. Sanding is OK, as long as the rotors are left on the vehicle(actually sanding may or may not do anything more than scuff up the rotor surface); and this is also the only way that rotors should be turned. Turning the rotors off the vehicle can lead to differences in runout, leading to thickness variation, leading to pedal feel issues, and excessive wear on linings and rotors.

 

That's a neat looking tool (from a truck parts place?!) and i'm assuming that you put it on a ratchet extension and turn, right? ... the turning is enough to retract the piston without any other compression?

The rotor thing is always debated but comes down to this: if you want the maximum coverage/area where pad meets rotor, and the smoothest (non-pulsating) pedal, Turn The Rotors everytime you change pads ... there will always be grooves worn in the rotors after time and new pads will conform to those grooves, but the surface where they contact will never be 100% as the pad contacts the high spots and floats through the valleys. The sanding thing is great for breaking the 'glaze' in emergency pad changes (like at the track where no lathe is available) but don't make a habit of it: even careful sanding can leave a 'rolling hill side' where pads travel in and out, or up and down, and before too long, you will feel a pulsating in the pedal.
There is usuall enough 'meat' on the rotor so that it can be turned a few times and give you and your pads a fresh start ... but aftre awhile, as they where thin they too need to be replaced - they are an expendable item, like the pads, and are designed to be taken off and tossed every now and then ...

 

Sooooooooo.......where are these tools sold and where can we get one?

 

Sorry to leave you hanging DD! I was waiting to get an affirmative from the manufacturer on whether or not it would work with the MINI, but I still haven't heard back from them (email). I checked with my dealer, and he said that they could source the official MINI tool, but I'm hesitant to even mention the price that I was quoted. Bear in mind, the tool that they use is almost identical to a $10 pad spreader, only it has a little disk on the end that rotates the piston. They price it at right around $300. And no, I'm not kidding. That's the price I was quoted.

If you want to do some research as to whether or not the standard "cube" tool will work for these pistons, then by all means, please do so. Like I said, I'm sorry that I haven't gotten any more info yet, but I'm not planning on changing my brakes again for awhile, so I wasn't too concerned with it.

The tool that I mention above is made by a company called Lisle that makes specialty tools. The tool itself is typically called the Lisle rear disc brake piston tool or something very similar to that. Doing a Google search will bring up dozens of possible sources for the tool. Most for under $10.

If anyone else can confirm whether this tool (or some other) will do the job, we're all ears!

 

Thanks Chitown! :smile:

 

Yep. I'm back. I'm fixing a nasty "stuck-pig" squeal in my right rear brake today, and I can't help but notice that I have SUCH a hard time getting the rear brakes off. I'm wondering if anyone else has had this problem, or if there's something wrong with me. I drove around all morning running errands, being careful to not use my e-brake at all, hoping that e-brake avoidance would keep the rears loose. I didn't even use my brakes at all on the last half mile home, just coasting to a stop in first. When removing the brakes, I've got the car in first, no brake (obviously, I hope), and after removing the retaining clip and the two sliders, I still have to pry the damn things off with various Rube Goldberg-style methods of tool combinations. And this isn't an easy pry-off, this is a "I hope I don't tip the car over off of the stands because I'm prying so hard" kind of a pry-off. It seems to me that in just ordinary driving, my brakes must just be riding on the rotors constantly, because there's not even a full millimeter of play between pad and rotor. It was the same way when I changed them last time...serious prying to get them off, prying that I find dangerous--to the pads, rotors, brake assembly and everything.

A little help anyone?

 

Did you compress the rear pistons in far enough before installing the new pads? Remember that you fave to turn the piston as you compress it.

 

Yeah. Not an issue. I had easily a quarter to a half of an inch of play between rotor and pad when I installed.

 

>>
>>Also, tool-wise...would this be the tool that you're mentioning?
>>
>>These seem to be readily available for no more than $10 all over the web. I'm just wondering if it for sure works with BMW/MINI rear calipers.
>>
>>Thanks for the insight!


Yesterday I helped a friend replace his brakes and rotors. First off a big thanks to Randy for putting together the how to. It made the job go a lot quicker.

As for the tool above I went out and picked one up. It DOES NOT FIT the rear pistons. I managed to compress ithem with a pair of needle nose pliers into the holes in the piston. Does anybody know where the correct tool can be found?

Jack

 

Check at any Murray's (or any discount auto parts store). Ask for a piston-turnback tool. For cars, it should be a two-sided, round tool. You should make sure to square-off the rounded pegs. If you look at the tool displayed, it has flat pegs, the cheap tool at Murrays has rounded pegs, and these tend to slip out of the piston.

 

Quick FYI to all fellow DIY motorers...
I went through the same nighmare the first time I did the rear brakes on my 99 Passat. A fellow member of http://www.clubb5.com told me about Pep Boys tool loan program. So now I must pass the word on to you...

YOU CAN BORROW THE BRAKE PISTON RETRACTOR FOR FREE FROM ANY PEP BOYS

All you need to do is put a deposit down (like $90 or so?) and bring it back in less than a week for no charge whatsoever. Very Cool. It had so many adap[tors in the kit that I can't imagine that it wouldn't work on the MINI.

Cheers

_________________
2003 MCS, Indi Blue, Black Roof

 

Couple of quick points: I bought the "cube" tool, and it doesn't work. It's close, but no cigar. The needle nose pliers trick does work, safely and reasonably effectively, so there's really no need for the tool, HOWEVER, if you're a real geek (and who among us on this website ISN'T a big geek) you can "borrow" the tools from PepBoy and many other auto parts stores that do in-house jobs (the tool with all of the adapters) or you can buy a kit with a ton of adapters for about 50 bucks if you want to do your own brakes on this and just about any other car in existence.

If you've got a MINI and are planning to change your brakes from time to time, just stick the points of some good, heavy-weight needle nose pliers into the holes, push and turn...it takes about 10-20 revolutions to retract the piston all the way in.

Good luck!