If so:

Any rubbing problems?
What wheel/width/offset?
What tire?
Car lowered/not lowered?

Considering 225/45/16's on 16 x 7.5 ET42 SSR Comps, on an H-Sport lowered MCS; but concerned about rubbing at that width/offset. Haven't chosen tire yet.

Appreciate any input.

Cheers,

James

 

humm...are you going for looks or traction? cause if you choose 205/50/16
S03's, your tires will look very wide (actually 225mm edget to edge on a 7.5"
width rim).

225/45/16's are hard to find... Yok use to make M7's in that size which
were noisy tires but looked good on a honda prelude.

 

Both are important.....looks and traction. Basically would like a little more tire under the car than a 205, and the 205 is a little "stretched" on a 7.5 wide rim; better on a 7 inch rim.

My first choice would probably be a 215/50/16 for ideal width and rolling diameter, but almost no tires made in that size. 215/45/16 is getting a little too small on the overall diameter for my tastes (too much speedo error and doesn't fill the wheel openings very well).

That leaves a 225/45/16, which is similar in diameter to the 205/50, with almost an inch more width (nice if it fits). And there are good choices in that size from $ to $$$$......... Kuhmo ECSTA Supra 712, Yoko AVS ES100, Pirelli PZero, B-Stone S0-3, Mich. Pilot Sport, etc. I think it may be a common Porsche (older) size.

I just don't want to deal with rubbing, carving up the fender liners, etc. I'm sure there's someone out there running them that can give me some feedback. Thanks for the input though, kenchan.

James

 

>>I just don't want to deal with rubbing, carving up the fender liners, etc. I'm sure there's someone out there running them that can give me some feedback. >>
>>James
>>
225 takes major trimming.

Alex

 

>>
>>>>I just don't want to deal with rubbing, carving up the fender liners, etc. I'm sure there's someone out there running them that can give me some feedback. >>
>>>>James
>>>>
>>225 takes major trimming.
>>
>>Alex


If the car is not lowered, is there still a potential rubbing problem?

 

I'm running 215-45-17 and get infrequent rubbing if I hit a big dip, and quite a bit of rubbing if I have 4 adults in the car and hit medium sized dips. If that's any help to you. But I still like the look and feel so i put up with it.

 

Alex, will 215/50-16's rub (BF Goodrich g-force T/A KDW's) with a stock Sports Suspension Plus setup? They will be mounted on 16x6.5 rims, although I might consider upgrading to 16x7 rims.

 

if your offset is 47-49mm it think you're okay.

 

Hmm, then they'll be okay on my stock rims, but if I get some O.Z. Superleggeras (37mm offset) then I might have to go down to 205/50-16's.

Thanks for the info!

 

>>If the car is not lowered, is there still a potential rubbing problem?

Lowering helps clear your fender lips, by introducing the additional negative camber.

Alex

 

Alex,

I've read this comment from you on a number of occasions and I'm confused by it.... Warning: long explanation/question to follow.....

The path of travel of the wheel (its trajectory) through the suspension motion (compression/extension) is determined by the geometry of the trailing and control arms, is it not? Lowering a car by changing springs only changes the static height at which the car sits nominally within that controlled trajectory (ride height); but does not change the trajectory itself. Camber is increased at the cars new ride height, only because the suspension is in a different place in its trajectory. The point in the suspension trajectory at which the tire would come in close proximity to the fender lip is the same on a stock or lowered car. Lowering, as is typically known on these boards, would not change the camber at that close proximity point and therefore, would not increase tire/fender lip clearance.

Suspension is typically designed to increase camber as it compresses because under cornering loads, the body of the car rolls slightly. The increasing camber relative to the car body keeps the wheel perpendicular to the road, maintaining maximum tire contact and grip.

The only way to change the suspension trajectory, and hence, change clearance between the tire and the inside of the fender lip on the MINI is by installing adjustable control arms and changing the static camber setting. Unfortunately, most people do this on a lowered car to reduce the inherent increased camber and save on tire wear. This reduction in camber will only decrease tire/fender clearance; unless of course you start changing toe-in as well with upper and lower adjustable control arms (I won't go there for this discussion).

I think of it this way; if I put the car on stands and took the springs completely out, I could move the wheel up and down through the suspension travel and the tire will either hit the body somewhere or clear everything all the way to the suspension travel limits (the bump stops); depending on the wheel and tire combo. In the case of a combination that does hit the body, all the different spring rate and ride height combinations I can choose from will only change the suspension load (passengers, cargo, cornering, uneven pavement, etc) at which the contact will occur. I suspect in a lot of cases where people have big tires, low-offset wide wheels, lowered suspensions, and they claim to not get rubbing; they probably have just never loaded their car enough to make them rub.

So please tell me, am I missing something? Is there a flaw in my reasoning? I studied ground vehicle dynamics and suspension design in engineering school; I think my understanding of this stuff is pretty clear. But I'm always willing to learn something new if I don't have this right.

Thanks,

James

 

truly I can't wait to hear the response to that thesis!...wow, now I'm starting to understand it a little more...as I am a "pictures" guy...

changing the subject only slightly: I'm a simple man...and have but one elementary question...

I have the stock MCS R84 Y spoke with OE Dunlop 5000 run flats 195/55/r16 with 9k miles and lots of tread left. Question: what is the widest non-runflat tire I can put on this rim without concern for rubbing? Question 2: if I get lowering springs, will the answer to #1 still work?

p.s. with everybody upgrading their MCS wheels I shall be the as unique with my stock R84's :smile:

thanks in advance. I hope to do business with you Alex soon.

Greg

 

The widest tire you can mount w/o any concern about rubbing under any condition (four people + cargo VS just the driver) is 205's. The stock 17" rims mount OE 205 tires, so just about any 205 width tire should be fine.

Once you get larger, things start to get iffy because the actual width of the tire will differ from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some tires might be skinny enough in the right places, others may not. In other words, different tires "bulge" differently between the tread and where it is mounted on the rim.

Hope that explanation makes sense :smile:

 

215/45/16 Azenis' on 45OS 16x7 (HSport springs) work fine. Never had a rub under any load condition on the street or track with or without full camber from plates.

205/45/16 v700's on 42OS 16x7 SSR's on track or autocross with full camber from plates work fine. Any speed bump or sharp driveway entrance will cause minor fender touch due to camber at 2+ degrees neg.

You may have to do a bit of trimming with the 225's due to the 42OS of your wheels. Should not be major. See Randy's fender trim how-to.

 

thanks for the reply!

since the R84 is a 6.5 x 16, can I still use the 45s?

thanks for your patience with a non-sophisticate tire newbie! My purpose is to keep my original rims for the look and stealth of mods! If it looks stock....

 

>>since the R84 is a 6.5 x 16, can I still use the 45s?<<


Yes you can. All of the boys running GStock are running 215/45/16 v700's or the equiv. You will probably not get quite as flat a patch but you can adjust most of that out with tire pressure (lower). They will work just fine. Remember, if you are thinking of going wider than 215/45 you are really pushing your luck with 6.5" rims and may experience worse handling than with a narrower tire. Is stealth really more important than handling?

 

>>
>>I've read this comment from you on a number of occasions and I'm confused by it.... Warning: long explanation/question to follow.....
>>
>>The path of travel of the wheel (its trajectory) through the suspension motion (compression/extension) is determined by the geometry of the trailing and control arms, is it not? Lowering a car by changing springs only changes the static height at which the car sits nominally within that controlled trajectory (ride height); but does not change the trajectory itself. Camber is increased at the cars new ride height, only because the suspension is in a different place in its trajectory. The point in the suspension trajectory at which the tire would come in close proximity to the fender lip is the same on a stock or lowered car. Lowering, as is typically known on these boards, would not change the camber at that close proximity point and therefore, would not increase tire/fender lip clearance.
>>
>>Suspension is typically designed to increase camber as it compresses because under cornering loads, the body of the car rolls slightly. The increasing camber relative to the car body keeps the wheel perpendicular to the road, maintaining maximum tire contact and grip.
>>
>>The only way to change the suspension trajectory, and hence, change clearance between the tire and the inside of the fender lip on the MINI is by installing adjustable control arms and changing the static camber setting. Unfortunately, most people do this on a lowered car to reduce the inherent increased camber and save on tire wear. This reduction in camber will only decrease tire/fender clearance; unless of course you start changing toe-in as well with upper and lower adjustable control arms (I won't go there for this discussion).
>>
>>I think of it this way; if I put the car on stands and took the springs completely out, I could move the wheel up and down through the suspension travel and the tire will either hit the body somewhere or clear everything all the way to the suspension travel limits (the bump stops); depending on the wheel and tire combo. In the case of a combination that does hit the body, all the different spring rate and ride height combinations I can choose from will only change the suspension load (passengers, cargo, cornering, uneven pavement, etc) at which the contact will occur. I suspect in a lot of cases where people have big tires, low-offset wide wheels, lowered suspensions, and they claim to not get rubbing; they probably have just never loaded their car enough to make them rub.
>>
>>So please tell me, am I missing something? Is there a flaw in my reasoning? I studied ground vehicle dynamics and suspension design in engineering school; I think my understanding of this stuff is pretty clear. But I'm always willing to learn something new if I don't have this right.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>James
>>

James - sorry about the delayed reply but I chose to enlist some addtional brain power - The Famous Dear John - in Grassroots Motorsports

If a vehicle’s suspension retains the original mounting points and adjustments, the tire and wheel will follow the same "path" from full compression to full droop regardless of ride height. Using alternate springs to raise or lower the vehicle will only change the point of where the suspension rests when parked, but will not change the "path" the suspension dictates that the tires follow.

If the tires do not come into contact with the vehicle's frame or body through the entire range of travel with stock springs, they will not come into contact with them after lowering springs have been installed.

However, camber settings do change slightly as the suspension passes through its range of travel. Most strut type suspension designs will see an increase in static negative camber as the vehicle is lowered and/or loaded. This increase in negative camber results in enhanced cornering traction at the expense of faster tire wear on the inner portion of the tread when driving straight ahead.

If the resulting additional negative camber is reduced to promote more even tire wear across the tread by moving the top suspension mounting point outward (using aftermarket camber plates where the strut attaches to the vehicle), it will reduce the distance between the tire's outer shoulder and the vehicle throughout the entire range of travel. Therefore tires that didn't interfere originally, may now come into contact with the vehicle's fenders or inner fenders.

I hope this helps

Alex

 

Thanks for the reply Alex. Seems to confirm my hypothesis.

Sure wish more of the nice wheels were made in a more optimum offset for the MINI (e.g. 45mm). Selecting wheels and tires is proving to be as difficult, if not more so, than selecting a MINI color combo!

Best regards,

James