When I had JCW brakes, I never had slotted rotors, for the reasons you mentioned. I'm undecided on slotted rotors--I've run both plain and with slots, and really don't notice any difference, but slotted rotors are always worth a shot, theoretically they may be of benefit.

I have the TSW BDM--Dustin probably sells it, he's a TSW vendor, but I ended up sorting my brakes out with Jeff at TSW. Him and Todd at TCE are really the guys to talk to, worth a call if you have a chance. Many times a nice BBK can be found here in the marketplace for a reasonable price.

The carbotechs will be a nice improvement for you--once you get used to them, I'm betting you'll like them. I've tried a number of different pads, and granted, it's subjective, but I'm going to use the carbotechs exclusively this year. One nice advantage of the carbo's is you can use Bobcats for the street, XP's for the track, and since the pads are a variation of a very similar pad compound, not worry so much about putting a new layer of pad down for the track; the Bobcats and XPs can be used interchangeably.

Personally, I leave the XP's on all summer on the rears, they hold up fine, although they're squeaky. I do swap out the fronts for each event though.

 

The rear brakes are not too important in the scheme of things.

I have 28 track days so far on R56 MCS brakes and at this point, I have decided to get a BBK for safety and economics. Stock brake rotors will start to get heat cracks after about 10-14 track days, and need to be replaced very soon after that. The stock rotors, like many have said, is just a little short of mass, therefore can suffer from overheating. They also have straight vanes versus the better directional vanes in BBK rotors. I have seen the consequences of brake failure on the track and want to improve my chances of not getting such an event.

FYI, Dustin and I worked on the brake economics last year and the break even is about 18 total track days (plus/minus) depending on your driving, pad choices/costs and the track. BTW, race pads for stock calipers last only about 3-4 track days.

The three best extreme tires are Yoko AD08, Bridgestone RE11 and Dunlop Z1 Star Spec. They last about 8-10 track days. With the RE-11 and Z1, they can chunk (tear) quite easily if you run them at the track full thread. So run them for at least 4-5K street miles before tracking them or get tirerack to shave them for you. R-comps, for me, last about 4-5 days.

OP, many of us have a lot of track experience. We are trying to make sure you do not have issues there.

 

As for rotor longetivity, the best combo will be street pads for the street, track pads for the track. Track pads are not friendly to rotors on the street, and street pads are not friendly to rotors on the track, as simple as that.

Here's the thing--your tire isn't as sticky as some of the others out there. So if you go to a stickier tire, the brakes are going to become even more of an issue. Something to have in your head, especially the first time you go out on stickier tires if you haven't upgraded the brakes.

Depends on how serious you want to get with this, but S-lights are VERY heavy. I run 15's but 16's are good too, and lighter. The advantage of 15's is you get a nice gearing advantage--the smaller diameter tire shortens the gears nicely, less weight which helps with both acceleration and braking, and the tires are MUCH cheaper--my R-comps, which are sticky as all hell, are about 110 bucks a piece. You can find a nice set of used rims here on the marketplace, and save your S-lites for the street.

It really depends on how far you want to go with it. If you're happy on street tires, and street tires are fun on the track, you can probably stick with stock brakes and a good set of pads, especially if you add some air to your fronts. If you're going to go to R-Comps, it's not a matter of if, but when, as you get better as a driver, you'll outgrow the stock brakes...

These are all things I've learned from trial and error (and if I had it to do all over again, I would have done things much differently from the outset), and from people much more versed in these things than I am. The true brake gurus are guys like Jeff at TSW, Todd at TCE, and guys like Way at WMW--any of them may be worth a call for you....

As Slinger said (and he is one of the track rats), the rears aren't as important, the vast majority of your braking is done up front. Most choose a slightly less aggressive pad on the rear because of this--for example, if you're using XP10's on the front, you'd use XP8's on the rears--that's going to be in the ballpark of temperature ranges where the pads are going to work best, and keep the brake bias roughly the same as it is with normal pads.

 

My friend, VV, does run the Brembo BBK with slots and drilled rotors on the track w/o any problem. I think he has over 20 days with that setup. He seems to run about 200-250 degrees F cooler than my stock setup (after cooldown so the temp of the rotors is not so useful) and I have brake ducts and he does not. Todd from TCE says rotors/pads can run north of 1000 degrees F on the track but I am unable to verify that first hand.

Additionally, I have seen the JCW slotted and drilled rotors crack on the track.

 

CCT1,

I am totally so addicted to the track

As my friend bilbo would say, "best fun you can have with your pants on".

 

From what I remember, it comes down to how the holes are put into the rotor--and the JCW is the way that makes them more prone to cracking between the holes. The Brembo's may be a better rotor, with the holes drilled the less crack prone way, don't know that much about the Brembo's though.

I'm going to get some heat paint, put it on the edge of the rotors, see what temps I'm getting, now that I have Way's ducts in. Hopefully I can tighten things up with pad selection by temperature (Tried Raybestos 43's last year, but I'm going to start with XP12's on the front, and try both 10's and 8's on the rears this year, which begins in two weeks).

Amen to that about the track. It's funny; there are three groups of people: you see people who go out once, just to try it, get it out of there system, and never come back. And then there are the sanest of the lot, the people who do very little to their car, go out and have fun a couple of times a year, and are happy with that. And then there is the rest of us, who are totally hooked, and spend WAY too much time and money working on totally esoteric things that we hope will make us faster.

 

That rotor heat paint is $45 an oz. Just a bit pricey for me.

I think XP8 is more than enough in the back. I have had those on for the entire 28 days on the track and can still go for another 6-8 more. Meanwhile, on my sixth front pad and I only have 27K miles. I find XP12 last one more track day longer than the XP10s. Perhaps it is the heat.

CCT1, do you ever make it to the NorthEast?

 

Midwest only for me--mainly Road America, Autobahn, Blackhawk, and Gingerman. I really want to get to Putnam sometime though, heard great things about it.

So many tracks, so little time There are some great tracks out east, wish they were closer.

 

I just started widening my scope a little but the midwest is just a little too far for me as well.

Made 10 tracks so far: WGI, Pocono, Lightning, Thunderbolt, LRP, NHIS, Laguna Seca, Summit Point, Monticello and VIR. Desperately want to make a track tour of the midwest.

 

If you ever do, definitely give me a heads up. There are few other out easters who have been threatening to try and meet up at a central point (MBCoops comes to mind)--be nice if sometime we could find a halfway point, like mid ohio, or Putnam or something, and get a caravan of MINIs there...

 

I'm in the "go out a few times a year" group. I just don't have the financial ability to be out there every other weekend, but I wish I did. I've done three events this year to date, which is more than average than me. Now that I have a hardtop again (I was in a Z4 for four years) it opens up a lot more events to me so I believe I will be at the track more.

I think do something around six events this year. I don't know how all out I need to go for six events. That's why I want to take it slow and play it by ear. While I totally hear what you are saying on brakes not being a place to cheap out on, I also don't want to spend big bucks for a big brake kit that isn't necessary for the amount of time I'm spending on the track.

I may do some cheaper track events this summer which would be a great place to test out the braking components and see how they hold up before the more expensive CCA schools start up again in fall.

 

I think the 111 Elise is a prime example of this idea being all you need, but thats based on a car purposely built for motorsports.

 

That's reasonable, see how it goes. If you're hooked on this, and you're going out 6 times a year or so, you WILL improve significantly. If you keep it up, and you upgrade your tires, I see a big brake kit in your future...

Just keep a close eye on fade--if you get it, don't push it, baby it until the brakes cool off. Take a nice, easy cool down lap at the end of your session, using the brakes as little as possible. When you get your car in, make sure to periodically roll it a few feet after a few minutes, so that hot pad isn't in the same place near the rotor for extended time..I'm sure these are things you already know, but they do help prevent issues.

 

I am also in the market for brakes. I am currently considering getting the EBC redstuff because I have had expierence with them in the past(even though I had yellow stuff). EBC also makes a new pad called Blue stuff which might work for you. Their product overview states that it is a track pad that can be used as a street pad. Almost all the rotors I have looked at have stated that they are not for heavy track use. I am debating if I want to get cryo treated rotors again. What are some peoples set ups? Are you running stock rotors with upgraded pads? Stock pads and rotors? Upgraded rotors and pads? Or Big Brake Kit?

 

While I have everyone's undivided attention, is there any benefit to 16s on the track over 15s?

 

CC - That is the $64 million dollar question - and the answer you will probably get is "it depends". It sound like some of these guys have worked through a lot of questions like this and I too would be interested in seeing their response. cct1 post 28 above lists the advantages of the 15". Basically lower weight and cheaper tires. Less weight means more speed and better braking. But from I have learned so far is that the 16" or 17" can buy you larger brakes without adding a lot of wheel weight. I expect that it is going to boil down to weight vs brakes. I went with 17s from 16s thinking that more rubber on the road was better.

OBTW - I have the ADO8s and they were great at Monticello, with only ~400 mi on them. They even didn't "complain" too much about the stock camber which really punishes the outside edge on them.

 

Lower weight and cheaper tires are part of it, but there are a couple of other considerations. The Miata crowd loves 15's, so there's a pretty good selection. 16's are kind of in no-mans land with tire selection; seems to be more choices in 15 or 17. You can get lightweight 17 inch rims, but make sure to look at the weight of the rim AND the tire--usually a 15 combo will win here. 16's are fine (although I still prefer 15's), but make sure there is a tire you like available in 16's before going this route.

But the biggest reason I like 15's is you can run a 225/45/15 inch tire--which is not only very wide, giving you nice grip, but also about an inch in diameter less than stock. This will be a nice for a couple of reasons--lowers the car without changing it's geometry, but more importantly, helps with gearing--the gears become shorter with the smaller diameter tire. If you go to a 15 from a 17 you'll notice the improved acceleration immediately. I ran 17's, but once I tried 15's, that was it for me--it just made the car that much quicker and more fun to drive on the track.

2004's have even taller gears than my car (the gear ratios were shortened up a bit on the 2006's), so you'll notice the benefit even more.

Some people like the 17's because they feel, with a shorter sidewall, turn in is crisper. But going with a good 15 inch tire with a stiff sidewall pretty much makes this a wash IMHO.

Other thing to consider is brakes. It is easier to fit a BBK to a 16 or 17 inch wheel--simply get a wider diameter rotor, and you're done. To make 15's work, you have to go with a wider width rotor, and keep the diameter the same (11.75). The TSW BDM is the only one that's really worked out for me.

When you're looking for brakes, consider rims, tires you'll want to run, and the brakes themselves as a package, and you'll come up with what's best for you. This is where I screwed up, and ended up buying and selling more sets of rims/brakes then I'll ever admit to. Try and figure it out from the start, and save yourself from the hard (and expensive) lessons I learned. You don't have to buy everything from the start, but have an idea which direction you may be heading in the future before you buy anything. Example: say you decide to buy a set of dedicated track rims before doing anything with the brakes. Make sure the offset will work with any potential BBK you're interested in...It will save you a ton of heartache.

 

Well said ---

 

I'm going to disagree to an extent.

For years I have offered a rear kit of 11.75". Not to "improve" the rear braking but to keep the rotor temps under control and provide what minimal torque benefits one might gain. I'm often asked what pad to run with the rear kit and I've always pushed the stock pad as being all you'll need.

The benefit of a larger rotor can exploit minimal gains by way of leverage thus negating the benefits and down sides of aggressive pads on oe rotors which only go to raise rear rotor temps beyond control and lead to boiled fluid. The problem with stock rear brakes is not one of bite but rather heat saturation.

 

Yeah, perhaps an unfair comparison.... What are the weights of each car? What are the stock brake sizes of each car?

Let me guess: his MINI had all the bells and whistles; sun roof, boom box, heavier wheels, four seats, power seats.....? How's that Elise looking in those departments?

 

I have talked with you quite extensively about this. I think either method seems to work. I have used the slightly more aggressive pad in the rear all this time and have not felt overheating due to lack of rotor mass. I understand what you are saying and have felt perhaps it maybe slightly over engineered for what I need.

 

Since adding the BBK, the wear rate of rear pads has been cut in half. I don't see any need to upgrade rear brakes beyond decent rotors, pads, and brake lines. The stock calipers with stock sized rotors are more than adequate. And we do a lot of DEs here with ambient above 90, and 100+ is not uncommon June, July, and August.

 

Hmmm so if I save money and get 15s there is a chance I'll have to switch to 16s if I decide to get a BBK in the future. That's something to think about. Where do I have 15 or 16 inch Koseis? Tirerack only has 17s and they have 15s/16s for Civics, I emailed them to ask if they would work and got this really generic reply that didn't say anything about fitment only that it if it isn't listed for the car that it isn't recommended.

 

e-mail alex@tirerack.com. I think he will be able to help.

Many BBKs require quite large diameter rims, even 17" with a smaller ET. Have an idea which BBK you might be interested in before buying more wheels.

 

I used to run kosei's with either a +35 or +38 offset over JCW brakes with no problem. I loved that rim, but it wouldn't clear my wider rotors.

You still can get a BBK for fifteens--but it's pretty much going to have to be the TSW BDM kit. It's not cheap, but it's fantastic. The rotors are 1.25 inch, so there aren't many 15 inch wheels that will work (Team Dynamics is your best bet).

On the other hand, 16's will allow a larger diameter rotor, and that's a great way to go to if you like 16's. I'd check with Todd about offsets before buying any rims, so if you decided to go with a BBK that'll fit 16's in the future, you have the correct offset for your 16 inch wheels from the getgo.

Offset is critical. It's at least, if not more, important than diameter. When I had the JCW kit on, I had fifteen inch Kosei's that cleared with no problem, and 17 inch rims that wouldn't fit--all because of offset.