I'm thinking I may have talked you out of the DP6 setup and I think it's a fair decision. The DP6, while a nice caliper and all won't do much for the root problem; rotor mass. My best suggestion would be to run this caliper on the newer JCW rotors (312mm I believe) and make a go of it. But price wise you're venturing into full P1/2 kit territory given the cost of DP6 calipers.

I might mention that really there is nothing I know of in stock size that could be truly termed a performance rotor. Given stock size requirements there is not much if any gain from one brand to another. It won't make more brake torque (dia) and won't stick more (Cf) so the only variant might be some mass of a few ounces. Slots and holes are not going to do magic for brake performance, they are just standard on a lot of kits today for competing purposes.

Anyhow, I think staying away from the DP6 on stock rotors for the track is probably the right choice. Great for the occasional user but not one who plans track day weekends through out a year.

 

+1. Better to have a decent entry speed and a smooth turn so you do not upset the car. Later on, you can get more trailing brake and throttle and even later TTO and TBO to reposition the car.

 

Cct1, thanks for the info you sent to me.

Now that we have Eddie building a track car for next year, we may have an extra participant when we get together for a track day next year.

 

 

The point being sir that your claim that the OEM brakes are not up to the demands is complete bunk. If the race teams that HAVE to use the OEM calipers can do so and win multi-hour races means that the calipers can withstand the demands of a track day.

I am not suggesting a better brake system is not a valid option, but don't make a statement that the OEM stuff can't hold up on a modded car. Get some better rotors and appropriate pads and you can enjoy those track days. I know I do.

 

I feel an old Monkies song coming on - "I'am a Believer" . Even as a novice I noticed that the stock brakes were taking heavies. Now, after my last day out and seeing what I saw, I am spending the bucks. I distroyed those brakes in 4 track days and I have only been out tracking for 5 days total in my life. My very first day was with Hawk HPS pads. Little did I know that I would cook those. And even less did I know what it would feel like. Honestly, I would not have believed what abuse the brakes take on the track and I am lucky that my last session ended when it did. One more time around and my brakes would have been gone and I might have been paying for a new Z06 . The thing is, you don't know that you don't have brakes untill they disappear on you when you need them

One more thing that I didn't believe - check your brakes after every session. It's a pain but if I had, I would have seen what was happening and put in the spare pads I had. But on the stock calipers you need to look from the top. If the pads are bent like mine were and you look from the side you will think you still have half the pad left when you actually have NONE

 

Maybe it is just what feels good to me, but if I am not off the brakes before I enter most turns, it screws the car up. I have stock springs and shocks, camber plate and 20mm rear sway bar. Maybe more suspension work would allow me to do more but not now.

I did a pretty unplanned dance coming out turn 5 (after the second long straight) at Monticello. I asked my instructor why that happened and he said I held the brakes into the turn and upset the balance of the car. So for now I using what works for me. Slinger - I know, more to learn but in time. It is like the toe at WGI and the Mini-line. What worked best for me was to brake straight line, go over the concrete, turn and getting on the gas. Nothing fancy, just timing as to when to apply the brakes.

Nah, you didn't talk me out of the DP6; I did. Did you see the shape my rotors were in (pics above)? They have laminations in the castings that are coming apart. I don't need that along with cooking the pads. That is what convinced me to look at the Plus 1; the rotors should be much better than stock, just in quality if not performance with directional vane cooling. I figure the 12.2" rotors plus some more (or lots more) cooling should be OK for now. If I trust the temp paint on the rotors, I didn't cook the stock ones and I don't feel I need more torgue. If not, then it is up to the rotors of the Plus 3

 

Like I said, there's a reason MINI changed the JCW brakes on the R56 to a BBK similar to what we're discussing here. If the OEM brakes were so good to begin with, why did they switch the stock R56 brakes to the old JCW's, and make the new JCW's like a regular 4-pot system? The reason was demand for better brakes....No demand, no change. I don't know how much time you spend on the track, but the OEM stuff doesn't hold up well. Especially the stock R53 brakes. We're going to have to agree to disagree here.

Stock brakes and upgraded pads are fine to begin with. Start throwing in trail braking, threshold braking, R-comps (another thing we didn't mention--many of those racers using stock brakes are limited to tire selection. Tires make a HUGE difference in braking, and braking temperatures). Like I said, with all due respect, myself and many others have been down this road, and the OEM stuff eventually fails. Just the way it is. Criticize our driving or whatever, that's fine--but it doesn't change the fact that a substantial number of guys who race (who can change the brakes), and who are top notch MINI drivers, would at the very least recommend the R56 JCW kit.

 

+1

 

I never really did any trail braking until I upgraded my suspension. Now I'm a trailbraking *****....

I'm still learning though. I'm very selective on what turns I trailbrake on. Started with the slowest turn at Blackhawk, then the next slowest, etc. There are some turns where it really doesn't pay, but a couple of them, it makes a huge difference. I have the benefit of a fantastic instructor though, a very, very fast SCCA racer.

Now I'm thinking about trying left foot braking--there are a few places that don't need a downshift that it would help--but there are some damned fast MINI drivers who don't use it, so I'm not sure wether I'll try it or not.

One thing about trailbraking--it eats up pads. But its oh so addictive...

Going to Road America this weekend--I haven't been there in two years, and haven't done much with trailbraking there. I'm going to take it easy Saturday, and if things are going well, maybe start working that into a safe corner or two. The speeds out there are pretty darned quick though, so I may end up straight line braking the whole time.

 

For a beginner or occasional track day driver the stock calipers are adequate as long as they aren't abused. The OP was about an occasional track day and the problems with the stock pads. For the majority of drivers that do an occasional track day for fun and for those that enjoy a run on the back roads, the right pads and rotor will be more than adequate. I am not disputing the need to upgrade parts as your need for speed increases, just the contention that you have to upgrade your OEM calipers if you have done any of the common mods and decide to do an occasional track day.

I love doing track days and do so to have fun, not to try and "beat" the other drivers. I challenge myself to be smooth and to make as few errors as possible. If I can do that and not need to allow a bunch of cars past, that is a fun day for me. When I want to race, I do it in a car that is better suited for that.

 

If you can get comfortable doing this, the feeling of being able to pull it off is great! This is probably the hardest thing I have ever tried to get comfortable with. It was real hard for me to get my "head" into using the dumb foot only some of the time. I found it was easiest to actually practice it while autoXing. Very few of the courses did I have to shift, would have been faster if I had, but I wanted to start trying to left foot brake with at least some kind of control before hitting the track.

Good luck

 

LFB is very usefull, but takes a long time to get good at it. I drove fwd hondas for years, so this was a must have for me. I use it on ocasion when were testing - especially when I am over driving lower performance tires

Alex

 

Alex,
Tire Rack has the DBA cryo for the Cooper S. Any opinion as to how these would be on the track for HPDE?

 

I'll probably work on it next season, at Blackhawk, where the speeds are relatively lower. I'm at Road America for my next three track days, speeds are high, and there aren't that many places to use it anyway.

Probably go out in the country and keep working on it first though; the few times I've tried it I hit the brakes WAY too hard--it's amazing how much less finesse I have with my left foot compared to what I've gotten used to with the right, where I can modulate and trailbrake. It's definitely something that will take a bit of work and seat time to get comfortable with.

Like MINI33342 was talking about, Autocross is probably an ideal place to use it and practice it, but I don't do much Autox...

 

Even an empty parking lot can be substituted. Nice low speeds (20-40mph) is what I started at.

 

My father taught me left foot braking for driving an automatic in tight traffic; stop and go where really quick reactions are necessary. You might want to start there (with an automatic, that is) to learn controls and to not to have to worry about the clutch. However, I never thought to do it on the track. I am not sure of the track use for it. Can someone fill me in?

 

I'd consider myself a master of LFB in a race car but on the street...not so much. Many cars today don't play well with LFB due to their use of a vacuum booster. It's easy to loose the vacuum built up in short order when running more WOT and not allowing the vac to build up.

I've also seen newbies tend to "over brake" with the left foot as they struggle with left foot sensitivity training! Once you do get good at it however the benefits are not so much under braking really but handling. Huh? Yes, car balance, not braking. By using LFB you can balance and set a car into a corner without upsetting the dynamics so much as a big lift or tap of the pedal. Done right it's a "two step dance" on the brake and throttle.

For a race car, this helps:

 

Abused stock brakes part 2-
My saga with stock brakes continues. I purchased 2 caliper rebuild kits to replace the rubber boots that I melted during my HPDE day and installed them today. To my surprise the pistons have score marks on them. I did grease the back of the pads before installing them but that appears to have burned off along with everything else around them. With nothing to help the pads to slide the little bit that the retaining clips allow, the pads appear to side loaded the pistons. I never would have known had I not had to take them apart.

Now the question is, do I need to replace the calipers? The score marks don't seem to have any real depth to them as I can’t feel them when I run a fingernail over them.

And what about BBKs – is this an issue with them too? I see that Todd sells shims for behind the pads in his BBKs to account for pad wear.

 

I think it will be prudent to replace the calipers as well since I know what you do with the car.

Yes, the shims are for pad wear. I recently saw some Titanium ones that claim they provide better insulation and helps prevent brake fade. Not sure if they work well but they are advertized for track use.

Also some brake ducts maybe useful.

 

Replace calipers - working on that (how do you spell BBK )
Yaaaa - brake ducts
got them
Actually, stainless steel would work too. It is a relatively good insulator for a metal. About 1/2 the thermal conductivity of regular steel

 

Take a look at this: http://tispeed.com/

Veggivet and I will be running at Monticello on Monday Oct4, and it looks like rain. Likely we may have to worry too much about cooking brakes. If it does rain, I will have to run my stock run flats instead of the r-comps.

 

Well, I haven't made a decision yet. I was looking at the 2 setup - the DP6 and the Plus 1. The plus 1 has an 11.75" rotor which is about the same as the stock rotor so with the stock rotor the DP6 will have about the same rotor mass. The only difference will be in the calipers and pads. The DP6 has a larger pad area than the pad for the Plus 1. Does the pad size make any difference that is meaningful?

 

I thought you were running 16" wheels? If so then I'd certainly look to more rotor diameter by way of the P2 or the optional rotor for the P1. (same net result of sorts)

Larger pads last longer. The size doesn't play a huge role in 'power' if that's what you were asking. Like putting on a shoe that's two sizes too large; you still weigh the same.

 

Having been down this road before, maybe give Todd a call.

Don't worry about pad sizes. It comes down to one of two options: either a larger diameter rotor (which is what everyone is recommending for you because of the wheel diameter you're running), or a larger width rotor (which is the direction I went, but it's a trickier solution due to a limited number of rims that will work). Going with a .81 inch x 11.75 diameter rotor is more or less a lateral move, rather than a significant improvement. A different caliper/pad combo will help, but in the end, IMHO, it's not going to be enough, especially as you get better, and especially if you are or are going to run R-comps.

Look not only where you are now, but where you plan to be in the future...I learned this the hard way.