Mass is definitely your friend when you are in need of more brake. Usually that translates into more mass- either heat sink (rotor), pad (longer life, less heat saturation) or caliper (stiffer, less heat saturation, housing larger pad)

I sat scratching my head to this email an hour ago:

I currently have the stock Brembo brakes still on my 2005 STI.

I am looking to get into a kit front and rear. I want to get a lighter setup than stock (reduce rotational mass) but yet still be very much capable of running full out on track days.

What can you recommend?

 

Both are good points. It just seemed that a larger pad would be better with disapating (spelling? ) heat than a smaller pad. That's all. I noted the 11.75" Plus 1 so the comparison to the DP6 would be with the same size rotor and that would not be a factor in the answer. Sorry, I should have said that before.

I also agree with cct1. I am surprise at how much I have improve in my driving and how much more that is taking a toll on my brakes, even with street tires. I am looking at as much BBK as the car and wheels can handle within the confines of what I want to use the car for. I think that mean the Plus 1 kit (no boots to burn up those are a pain to replace ) with the 12.2" rotors in order to stay with the 16" wheels. Hopefully that will accommodate at least some modest improvement in my abilities

However, with that said, one point that has been missed in this discussion is that the one problem that I had was not with rotor mass. It was with the stock caliper and the fact that they load the inside pad more than the outside pad and "burned out" that inside pad. It was the same on both front wheels. I would expect that a multi piston caliper will resolve that issue. That alone should improve the margin in my brake capacity. No?

Lastly, I hope that this thread has been and will be helpful to others as I have learned a lot over the past track season and part of that was from not learning from other's experience. Hopefully this thread will tie some things together for beginners and they don't make the mistakes I made ....

 

I thought that the BBK rotors had as much or more "rotor" mass but tended to be lighter because the hats were lighter than stock. Could that be this person is thinking? Or am I confussed

But if that is the case, then that would only reduce unsprung weight; it will do little or nothing for rotational weight which would have an affect acceration.

 

Total heat generated will always remain based upon the weight of the car and speed at which it's traveling when braking hard. 10" rotor or 14" rotor the heat remains the same, only the parts managing it change.

The larger pad spreads the same clamping load but the effect of it vs a smaller pad remains the same. Pads are not make to shed heat, they're made to generate it. The more aggressive the more it creates in a shorter time span.

The fixed mount caliper with opposing pistons offer quicker and more responsive reaction to the pedal pressure and without the dreaded slide pins don't stick as you'd experience with the oe part.

Yes the two piece hat and rotor will weigh less and offer some improvements to both acceleration and cornering etc etc. And to some limited scope; braking- less rotational mass. But for the most part the gains here will have little or no effect on the desire to improve the braking and at best match what he has now for braking. Near equal rotor (ring) mass, near same caliper size and piston area....But if he's having issues with the oe parts now this change is far more lateral than gainful.

 

This sums it up. I was in EXACTLY the same place, switched to a better caliper/pad but stayed with a 11.75x.81 rotor. It was a slight improvement (might have been better with air ducts, but I didn't do these until later), but I outgrew it faster than I thought I would--Todd warned me of this (it was awhile ago, I'd be amazed if he remembers it), and I told myself, nah, I'll be ok with the smaller setup...Didn't work out. Ended up getting yet another BBK (still 11.75 diameter, but 1.25 inch rotors--I really wanted to stay on 15 inch wheels).

Anyway, when it comes to brakes, there's reality, and then there's wishful thinking. I've become a big fan of the former, as I've been burned so bad by the latter...

As for asymmetric pad wear, you're still going to get that with a BBK, but it's going to be different--the pads will wedge a little bit (Todd can give you all the ins and outs on this). Todd suggested flipping the pads at the first sign of this--that's what I did last weekend, and it works like a charm keeping the pad wear relativley even.

Anyway, when you're ready to make the plunge, call Todd, it'll be time well spent.

 

Ehhhh....the dreaded wedge factor! I has it and I don't like it - what's weird is that only the L/F does it. Or at the very least it's substantially more pronounced than the R/F.

 

Pad Wear Spacers:
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/brake-pads/

 

When I burned my brakes out at Monticello this last time I noticed that my L/F was also worn more than the R/F. I concluded that it was because most of the turns are to the right and I was probably hitting the banking for the turns before getting off the brakes, which loaded up the left side of the car and caused the L/F to work a little harder. Someone did say I was a late braker

 

I used to be a late braker, but I'm really trying to refine that. I still love to trail brake, but if you brake just a little too late, then you end up using your tires too much to scrub off speed. Which works, but you should've seen my left front tire after Blackhawk awhile back (mainly right hand turns). I'm trying to find the balance between speed and wear. Thing is, as I've gotten less wear on my tires and pads, I've gotten faster.

 

+1 i also used to be a much late braked as well but after more time on the track, I found that it is more about getting the car properly balanced at the right time and speed. So now I brake earlier but I think I am just as fast. I am now not holding on throughout the turn but rather getting the car ready to get out of the turn under full power.

But I to say that dive bombing is still kind of fun.

 

Boys, boys, boys.....any of you guy's running data loggers to support your findings? Feeling faster and being faster are different so keeping track of it is important. There is a new style "Hot Lap" timer out that keeps track of your lap times vs your last time - before you just got the current lap time and had to wait till you came in to scroll thru and see your older times.

 

Yes. I've gone from 1:30 down to 1:27 at Blackhawk this year, with more room to take time off. I lose time by dive bombing unless I hit the exit speed just right--which isn't easy late braking. If I brake a little earlier, it allows me to hit the entry speed just right--not only are my laps quicker, but I'm a hell of alot more consistent.

I can still work at compressing the braking zone in places. I can get more agressive on turn 5 (I've spun there in the past, and still take it easier than I have to). But for working on quickness at the track, it's much easier (and faster, not to mention safer) to brake a little to early, hit the entrance speed just right, and work on compressing the braking zone next time around, than it is to brake a little too late, screw up my entrance speed, and work backwards by braking earlier next time around (if that makes sense). At least for me.

 

My times at Monticello improved by 7 seconds by getting rid of the instructor and wearing the brakes out

 

I don't care about my times. I just need to be faster than someone else there. So far so good.

 

Congrats to all... ^^^

 

Next year, I install the flux capacitor, which should make a dramatic improvement in times....

 

Whatever it is, I am limited by my desire and need to be able to drive home in one piece.

Otherwise I have to answer to the BOSS.

I do not know how Eddie can get home with fried brakes and survive the aftermath. To you buddy.

 

What do you mean Did you see the pictures I posted There was at least 0.005" of brake pad left - no metal on metal

Plus I had an extra brake pad set with me that some nice Trackee gave me. No, here's to you Never leave home without them . They were just toooo hot to change.

I am just glad they waved the checkered flag when they did. The way I was smoken the track , with one more lap the brakes would have really been toasted I suppose there is something to be said for checking brake pads between sessions

 

He he

Does your wife ever venture into the garage? When you are rebuilding all the stuff you broke?

How is your bbk choice coming along?

Thanks for all the humorous and fun moments with you, s-driver, zeke and Veggivet for this track season. Let's have another fun season next year.

 

ToddTCE,

Is the Plus 2 kit (12.1") lighter than R53 OEM non-JCW front assy.? If so, how much lighter? Does gas slotted rotor make a difference in spirited street?

 

She knows everything, even when I don't tell her

How 'bout the Plus 1 with the 12.2" rotors. No dust boots to deal with and burn out. Plus the stainless pistons will conduct less heat into the calipers and the brake fluid.

Here's to you too, next season & mods in the winter.

 

I do not know all that much about the TCE Plus 1 kit since I went to a Plus 3 kit. The compound B pads are noisy, for my driving style, a little too grabby and somewhat difficult to modulate and they seem to "stain" the rims with brake dust that is very difficult to remove. Just got my CT pads from Dustin (autoxcooper) and I am changing over to the XP10s.

It is logical that they would be better than stock but are they good enough for you and your lead foot on the track??

 

I'm sure it is and by a fair amount. Exactly how much I don't know....total shipping weight of a 12.2 factory Wilwood kit including everything is about 36lbs. Even a move to the heavier GT rotors might bump you to 38lbs.

Slots won't do much for a street app other than wear out pads quicker and make the wheels more dusty. So why do I and others make them standard? Industry standard pretty much dictates it....if brand A does not have them and brand B does; then clearly brand B must be better right?!

 

Poly B pads are a dedicated TRACK ONLY pad for sustained high temp use. When used at that level 800-1100f they don't dust all that much and have a great wear rate. I'm really hoping you are not using these on the street...